Episode 34

Rachel Maddow Calls LOTR "A Favorite Cosmos" Of the Right-Wing, But Isn't That Missing the Point?

Philip brings on Nathan Danneker to discuss Rachel Maddow's reference to Lord of the Rings as a 'right-wing favorite' and how the conservative label misrepresents the iconic series.

00:00 Introduction

01:13 Learn About the Guest, Nathan Danneker

02:30 What Makes Lord of the Rings Special?

04:56 Fans from A Lot of Different Backgrounds Enjoy Lord of the Rings

05:29 LOTR FAN as a Political Label

07:37 Conservative Values in Lord of the Rings

12:25 Referring to LOTR As Conservative Misses the Point

15:46 Many Things Make Lord of the Rings Great

22:43 Political Insult Makes for a Grave Misrepresentation of the Lore

26:03 Conclusion

Transcript
Philip Intro:

Welcome, my lords, to the White City, where you will learn

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more about Middle Earth and discover

differences and similarities between

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The Rings of Power show and Tolkien's

books, and whether Amazon's show,

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episode by episode, is worth watching.

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I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll

be joined by Matt Vandevort and

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Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.

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Philip: Hello, everyone.

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Thanks for tuning into

The White City Podcast.

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Uh, today I have with me, Nathan

Danneker, and we're going to be talking

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about something pretty unique to what

we've been, what we've ever talked to

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him before in The White City Podcast.

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And it's going to kind of revolve

around what, you know, what makes Lord

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of the Rings meaningful and how uh

you know, kind of like, what's in a

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sense, what do people get out of it?

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Yeah, so Nathan.

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I guess some questions I have are like,

how'd you get interested in Lord of the

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Rings and things like, did you see the

movies first or read the books first?

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And yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: So.

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It was a long, long time ago,

um, probably elementary school.

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I do not remember if I read

The Hobbit or the series first.

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but definitely I was a, I was a

middle schooler around that time when

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the Peter Jackson series came out.

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So that was my main introduction.

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There were several times that we would

have just movie nights of just watching

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Lord of the Rings extended cut, obviously,

cause that's the only correct one.

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Philip: Right, right.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: But yeah, I

do not, I believe I probably

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read some of the books first.

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I mean, they're massive books, so

especially for middle schoolers like

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like me, I don't think I finished

them before I watched the movie.

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But I definitely, definitely would

rewatch them everything else.

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And then after the movie, I definitely

got into more of the, I was more

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curious about the other stuff.

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So the library only had The Hobbit, so

I read The Hobbit and The Silmarillion.

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So I've read those two, I've not

read of the, any of the other stuff.

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I I'm going off of very long-term

memory, cause I think the last time I

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read any of these books was college.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: So, if I,

if I get anything wrong,

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you feel free to correct me.

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Philip: Oh, Okay.

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Yeah.

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I'll try to, try to be on top of it.

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Yeah.

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So when you think about Lord of the Rings

and like, what really makes you like

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interested in it or like a fan of it?

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Like, kinda like, describe that,

like, is it like characters or a

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specific, like, things about like, oh,

all the all the mythology it's based

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off of, or those kinds of things.

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Nathan Danneker: I think as a kid, I

just, mostly, I just liked the, because

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especially with the movies, it was

like, they did such a good job with

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representing everything, the epic battles

and everything else was like, you know,

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as a young boy, that's, that's what I got.

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And that's what attracts

you to this stuff.

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You like the big, big monsters,

especially the mûmakil.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: Those are still...

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The mûmakil in those movies are

probably some of my favorite,

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huge monsters I've ever seen.

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And so that's probably

what drew me in initially.

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What kept me around was just more

of the, like the, the character

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aspect of it and everything else.

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Some of my favorite parts was

in the book when Samwise is

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taking Frodo up the mountain.

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I forget exactly how he describes it,

but like basically Sam comes to the

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point where he's like, I I've given up.

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But I've given up so hard

that I'm going to keep going.

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And he's like, I am so

done with this trip.

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We're going to finish this.

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Um, And so I just liked that idea of like,

you know, people persevering through crazy

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experiences, everything out and still like

pushing through to get everything done.

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And, definitely, especially in The

Silmarillion was actually what kind

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of kept me in everything else, because

like, like reading about, the elves

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and like, they're like, especially

with Feanor and his family, like

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their arrogance and everything else,

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and that's like, you know, oh, Hey,

this, you know, you know, that's,

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it's a very relatable character and

everything else of like, he was a

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master at what he did and he got too

stuck up and in what he could do.

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And it bit him.

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And so just like relating to that

and everything else and like.

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Just like the conflict

and everything else.

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Getting into that.

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So that's really what's cool.

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I some of the books, some of the

stories in The Silmarillion are weird.

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So that one was like, why

did Tolkien write this?.

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but overall I liked it.

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And the series, the trilogy and the

Hobbit definitely, definitely are good.

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I did watch the, I did watch The

Hobbit, the Peter Jackson, Hobbit films.

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All three of them.

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I would say it probably

could have been two.

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But those are still fine films.

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Philip: Yeah, that's cool.

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Yeah, I think, I mean, what's

neat about Lord of the Rings is

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it can be attractive to anybody.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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Philip: Not just.

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Not just like, you know, crazy nerds who

are just going to be you know, laying on

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their beds all day or you know what not.

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I know people who all across the board,

like Lord of the Rings, And, liberal

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or not like, and that's probably

like where we're getting kind of be

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talking about like politics wise.

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Nathan Danneker: Because it's

politics season in America and we

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need to throw more gas on the fire.

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Philip: Yes.

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It's true.

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It's true.

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So.

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Just to kind of like, dive into this.

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So for anybody who doesn't know.

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It kind of might be a little, a

little subtle unless you're really

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been looking for it, and you're

really like a Lord of the Rings fan.

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During the Republican National Convention,

there was somebody from MSNBC there,

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her name's Rachel Maddow, just to try

to get all the facts straight here.

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And she was from MSNBC during the,

you know, during the convention.

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And, this is a quote from her that

the "Lord of the Rings is a sort of

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favorite cosmos for naming things

and cultural references for a lot

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of far-right and alt-right figures,

both in Europe and the United States.

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Peter Thiel names, all of these things

after Tolkien figures in places like

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his company, Palantir for example."

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So, Peter Thiel is like a mentor

in a way to who is like now,

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like the Republican, like.

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vice-president.

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So JD Vance also named his

firm after an Elven ring Narya.

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So, I think the big thing with this

is probably that because JD Vance

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is vice-president and he's, you know

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Nathan Danneker: Vice president candidate.

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Philip: Vice-president candidate, right.

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Yeah.

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That's true.

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Let's make that straight.

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Yeah.

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this is not a politics podcast.

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Nathan Danneker: Obviously.

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Philip: But, anyways, so, you know,

him being conservative and now also

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like a Lord of the Rings lover.

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So to speak, I think that was

just one thing that Rachel

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Maddow was trying to fire at him.

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So.

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I guess the thing is, is like,

and it's kind of like what I was

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referring to earlier about what to

you made like Lord of the Rings?

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Like so great.

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And.

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What.

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Like what brought you the interest there?

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Because Rachel Maddow, I think's trying

to connect there is that, oh, Lord of

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the Rings is just a right wing favorite.

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And.

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So then like, If you, if you hear that,

like what, what does does that, I guess.

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Does that make sense?

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Is that something that is like,

Something that can be applied

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like to conservativism, you

know, is Lord of the Rings.

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Does that make, does that make sense?

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I guess,

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Nathan Danneker: I think.

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It's it's the hard part is, people

will, especially in political season,

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they will attack anything they can,

if they think they can get an edge.

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So, obviously if they're going to attack

a lot of different other things and

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everything else is probably just one thing

that they brought up in everything else.

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So I think for the right wing side, um,

there's a lot of things, at least with,

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once again, I'm speaking from an American,

I don't know the European right-wing

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side or any of the other countries.

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But there's definitely, there's definitely

aspects of talking story that would appeal

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to a traditional right-winger like, you

know, that there's a good and bad side.

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There's, you know, you're trying

to protect your own lands.

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There's a respect for good authority,

and at the same time, like, If business

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is doing good, you're doing good,

like in the Shire and everything

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else, like, you know, people were

selling, buying, and it's like, it's

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a happy place and everything else.

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And like, you know, like kind of the idea

of the Shire would be like, you know,

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that's, that's the idea of a oh, happy

place that the right-wing would people...

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But also at the same time, there's

other stuff in Tolkien that I think.

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current modern American

right-wingers would probably not

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jive with as much, for example, the

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Philip: okay.

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Nathan Danneker: And one thing I was

thinking of was like the, the forest and

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the Ents and them trying to protect the

forest from everybody using the forest.

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Whereas like, especially.

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I feel like in our current age,

there's a lot of right-wingers

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that want to use all of our natural

resources as much as possible and

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not try to conserve everything.

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Just use it.

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Which is definitely much more of

like a, Saruman thing, which was

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not a good, not as a good one.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: And there's,

speaking of the one, which was

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interesting, which was the Palantir.

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The interesting thing was the

Palantir was, it was good as

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long as the source was good.

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But once Sauron captured the source,

all the other Palantir got corrupted.

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So that's just a, you know, A wary...

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I don't know if Peter Thiel, I don't know

him that much, but I just curious if, if

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he knew that story of like, you know, Hey,

do you, do you have your source right?

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Make sure your source is right, because

if you're, you know, if the source

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is wrong and you're spreading out,

like all the other Palantir then, you

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know, you're just spreading more bad.

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So.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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Philip: So what is he really doing?

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Nathan Danneker: I don't know.

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As I said I've, I've never, yeah.

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I don't really follow politics much.

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Yeah.

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But I definitely think there's

like aspects of everything

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that that can be definitely,

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good.

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Like definitely with you, you

know, family, and Tolkien,

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like family is very important.

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You know, People, you honor

your family and everything else.

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People honor,

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you know, the parents are

like that and everything else.

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In most cases, except where I

guess, in the movies with Arwen and,

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I'm blanking on his name.

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Philip: Elrond.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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That's the only one where you

can kind of see like conflict.

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Philip: Okay.

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Nathan Danneker: But I forget if

that's really there in the books.

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I guess some sort of, because El

Elrond did not want Arwin falling in

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love with Aragorn, but it happened.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: So.

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There's like, there's like that where

it's like, you know, the, the family's

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respected and everything else, but

also the same thing, the same thing

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with like, you know, Aragorn and Arwen.

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Like Aragorn, didn't like, you know,

try to force her hand or anything like.

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Until, she was ready to admit,

and you're like ready to

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accept him and everything else.

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Then, then they got married.

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So like that is definitely much more of

a conservative idea of like, you know.

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You wait.

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And then also just the idea of like

having, A A, like a strong defense of

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your lands and everything else, like,

which is the big thing of like you

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know what happens in Gondor and Rohan

of like, you know, they're protecting

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their lands and everything else.

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And also the idea of, this is the

one thing I come out, especially

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now is, when Eomir in the movies.

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like he's going around and hunting the

orcs and Uruk-hai and everything else.

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And his dad is, you know, still

effected by Grim Tongue and like

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I'm going to protect my land

to get, and nobody else does.

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It's like,

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Philip: Uncle.

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

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Oh yeah, his uncle..

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Um, Yes.

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Thank you.

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Um, But like, you know, that's a very

much a current American right-wing

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thing of like, you know, if nobody

else is going to protect my land,

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I'm going to put back my land.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah.

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Philip: Right.

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Very, some very traditional values there.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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Philip: And I mean,

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I think all a lot of people would

consider like all these things very good

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that's coming out of Lord of the Rings.

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You know, a lot of the a

lot of the major themes.

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Just like some big takeaways there.

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You know, like friendship,

you know, leadership.

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Those kinds of things.

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and I think are pretty big.

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in the storyline.

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And all.

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So one thing that I've kind of

thought about with all of this is.

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and you tell me your sense of this

too, is that like, is it like calling,

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like Lord of the Rings even like

conservative, or even like right

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wing, I think like misses the point.

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So I think like, because it's

It's like, Not just like that,

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that it necessarily would be like

bringing it, making it political.

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But also that it's,

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it's kind of causing it to be, kind of

in a box of like, oh, like we love it

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because it's conservative but it's like,

I feel like there is a lot more behind

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it than just, Hey, this is conservative

and it has conservative values.

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Which yeah, like, may be true.

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but.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah, I

definitely would say the values.

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I mean, obviously Tolkien was

a, a Christian, so he had values

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that the conservatives in at least

America, somewhat uphold still.

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I mean, obviously things have changed

in the past, you know, like 70

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years since Tolkien wrote the books.

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But the, the big thing with, I would say

with Tolkien is like, you know, it's,

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it's like good stuff that everybody would

like to, like I think, both liberals and

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conservatives are like, Hey, you know,

you want good friends, that'll stick by

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you and through, up through everything.

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Like both of them will agree like,

yeah, we want things, you know, we

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want allies that will stick with us.

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And I think, at both times,

like, I think both liberals and

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conservatives would agree that one

of the things that, comes up is when.

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I remember in the, the second

movie when, Theoden asked

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where Gondor is.

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And then in the third movie,

the beacons get lit and Gondor

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still hasn't done anything.

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But Theodin's like, No, I'm, I'm going

to be the better person and honor the,

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the Alliance and go and help them.

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And like, I think that was definitely

something that both the liberals

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and conservatives would agree that

that is something that's good.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: It was like, I'm going

to honor the agreement I made, and stick

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to my, stick to the word that we gave.

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And so some, some things are like that.

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There's, there's other things.

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I mean, as I said, like,

traditional values, like

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definitely traditional values.

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I mean, like if, Like I said,

is that some of the stories

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in The Silmarillion are wild.

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so like, that's definitely like,

you know, oh, Hey, it's a bog

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standard thing and everything else.

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It's like, yeah.

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It's, that's because Tolkien's gotten

so popular, it's like, You know.

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It's, it's.

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I've, I've heard other people complain

about Tolkien being like, Tolkien is so

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popular it's ruining our fandom because

we can't tell different stories because

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everyone assumes it's like Tolkien..

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Not how we want to say it.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: And so it's like,

that's, the problem is like, when

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Tolkien's the standard, it's like,

you know, when you want to rebel, you

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say, Oh, you know, normally when you

want to rebel, you say, it's, that's

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the conservative old fogy stuff.

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The reason why it's, you know, that

Tolkien stuck around for so long.

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Is like, it's because

the story speaks to us.

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Like after all these years, And so.

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And then some people that's just not

comfortable for them, is like having

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something that speaks to them, that long,

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Philip: Hmm.

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Nathan Danneker: So.

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Philip: Interesting it has to be,

it has to be something like new.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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Philip: And like modern in a sense maybe.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah No that's good.

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Yeah, I can definitely agree.

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I think.

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I think one thing that like, we've

also talked about like, in in previous

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episodes is how, like Lord of the

Rings, Middle-earth, you know, all those

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stories, are made great by more than

just like one, like one thing, right?

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It's not just like, mythology or

history or, you know, or like the

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worldview, Christian worldview, but

it's like all those things connected.

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And like some of those things, that

make it so good aren't even like,

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There are some of those.

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Yeah.

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Some of the things that make it

so good, you can't even connect to

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like, necessarily like Christian

values in a sense, right?

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Because like Tolkien was

really good at languages, right?

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

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Philip: Because that's like

that was like his thing.

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And the only reason why the Lord of the

rings was made was because he like made

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up his own languages and was like, Hey, I

want like, I want somebody to speak this.

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I'm going to create my own world to

like, speak these languages, you know?

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And that's like, what, one of the

things that makes it so great.

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And it has nothing to do

with like politics or like

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

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Philip: I mean, even with like faith.

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But again, like the, all those different

things too, that make it so great.

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And that's just one thing.

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

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And also, I mean, I, I don't know the

history, but I know him and CS Lewis were

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obviously very close friends, and I wonder

how much of, I don't know the timeline,

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but I'm wondering how much of seeing C.S.

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Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia

taking off got him the idea of

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like, Oh, I should create my own

world, and so kind of that idea.

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Because I mean like, you know, when,

when it's two creative people together,

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you tend to rub off on each other.

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I've experienced that with other hobbies

and everything else and other fandoms.

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Whereas like one person gets

super excited about something

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and it just kind of rubs off.

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And, so.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, I definitely would agree

that like a lot of the themes are

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like, are generally just what humans

approve of, you know, in the story.

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Like wherever you go in the world, you

will, you find people who, you know,

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they want people who they can trust.

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They want people who they can rely on.

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They wanted to fight back against

whatever they consider evil people.

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You know, people have different

things of what are evil, but

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they want to fight against evil.

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You know, they want evil not to win.

383

:

And so.

384

:

And then they, you know, they celebrate

the people who do you know, if they

385

:

can't do it themselves, they celebrate

the people who do do it for them.

386

:

So.

387

:

And this is just kind of

like universal human-ness.

388

:

Philip: Right.

389

:

Nathan Danneker: So

390

:

Philip: Yeah.

391

:

What's also interesting is like going into

the second season for The Rings of Power

392

:

show, it's kind of a side note, but, I was

really actually pretty like, excited about

393

:

the trailer, like the official trailer.

394

:

When it was shown I saw the ents.

395

:

I saw, I think there was like,

was there a troll in there?

396

:

I can't remember.

397

:

And, uh, there are some other things.

398

:

Tom Bombadil is going to be in it.

399

:

Nathan Danneker: Okay.

400

:

Philip: So

401

:

Nathan Danneker: Is this the

first time he's on screen?

402

:

Because.

403

:

Philip: Yes.

404

:

Nathan Danneker: Okay.

405

:

Philip: Yes.

406

:

So some of those things I'm like, wow,

this is going to be great, you know.

407

:

But then listening to.

408

:

Listening to the actors, like, and

some of the clips from like the

409

:

Comic-Con, which is, I guess they

released the trailer at the Comic-Con.

410

:

It was just like, okay.

411

:

It almost seemed like they were trying to

bring it back to like a modern setting.

412

:

And talk about the characters in kind

of like, in more like modern terms.

413

:

And I'm like, oh, into like how the

way they're feeling or the way that

414

:

like, trying to express themselves.

415

:

And.

416

:

ya know, And it was, it does seemed

less of a, Oh, like I'm, I'm like this

417

:

character in this role, trying to be in

this world, and, and then from there,

418

:

like, you know, expressing kind of

like how this character would talk or

419

:

relate to other people in the world.

420

:

Not necessarily based off of like,

like our values today, necessarily.

421

:

Nathan Danneker: Yeah, it's yeah, I

mean, humans have done that all the time.

422

:

I mean, there's, there's plenty of

stories where people take a historical

423

:

story and they'll spin it to match

whatever they're trying to push in

424

:

in current modern times, even though

this, the, you know, it may not

425

:

exactly fit what they're saying though.

426

:

But you know, history only tells you

so much, same thing with Tolkien.

427

:

I mean, Tolkien did write a

lot, but he only had so much.

428

:

And so it's like, you can always,

you know, and, and also at the

429

:

same time, people can just take

whatever they want and just go with

430

:

whatever they want to go with it.

431

:

I have not watched as is also on the side

note, I've not watched the uh, season one.

432

:

I maybe, maybe we'll see.

433

:

But Amazon ruined another one of

my fandoms and, I did not trust

434

:

them with Lord of the Rings.

435

:

So it was like, I'm not

going to be disappointed.

436

:

Um, so.

437

:

Philip: Yeah..

438

:

Wait wait you said, oh,

you said another one was...

439

:

Nathan Danneker: Another one.

440

:

Yeah.

441

:

Philip: Wheel of Time?

442

:

Nathan Danneker: Yes.

443

:

Philip: Oh yeah, okay.

444

:

Yes.

445

:

I haven't seen it at all.

446

:

Nathan Danneker: Yea no, no.

447

:

Don't don't.

448

:

yeah, it's.

449

:

Yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't realize it,

but this is a sidebar for real time.

450

:

Apparently one of the actors left mid

season because he was so frustrated with

451

:

the writers and the way they were going.

452

:

And I was like, it was, it was

a very crucial, main character.

453

:

And I was like, why,

why is this happening?

454

:

And then I heard about it and

I was like, oh no, Oh, no!

455

:

So hopefully that doesn't

happen for Rings of Power.

456

:

I hope that that does happen.

457

:

Hopefully they do treat it right, and

hopefully they heard the feedback and,

458

:

you know, they they tell a good story.

459

:

Because, you know, there's definitely

some times like, you know, sometimes

460

:

there's there's, uh, I mean, also the

other thing is like, you're trying

461

:

to tell a story in eight episodes.

462

:

And there's going to be things

where you're going to leave it out.

463

:

I mean, I remember the famous one.

464

:

I think it was the, I think it was

the Zack Snyder Justice League or

465

:

like the original cut that went

to cinema was panned everywhere.

466

:

And then the release, the, I think

it was called, they called it the

467

:

Snyder Cut, which is like an extra

40 minutes of like extra stuff that

468

:

they had to cut out because they

needed to get down to it cinematically

469

:

and it, like, it changed the movie.

470

:

And it's like, you know, that could be

the same thing with what the show is like,

471

:

oh, Hey, this is what we had to do, but

we have to get it into eight episodes,

472

:

and we, we just, we can't make a ninth.

473

:

We would love to make

a ninth, but we can't.

474

:

So.

475

:

Yeah, we got cut things.

476

:

Yeah.

477

:

So..

478

:

Yeah

479

:

Philip: Interesting.

480

:

Nathan Danneker: So, yeah, so, and

that's, that's also the way of like,

481

:

you know, same thing with, the other

stuff is like, you could, you could see.

482

:

You could see that where,

483

:

Like, you know, People want to

tell something and everything

484

:

else, or you could say.

485

:

I mean, I know also at the

same time, like if people.

486

:

The other, the other thing I will

say is, um, kind of going back to

487

:

like the conservative thing is like,

you know, people having in mind like

488

:

what they think Lord of the Rings is.

489

:

And if whatever somebody else thinks

of it or somebody else thinks of it

490

:

is not exactly what they think of it.

491

:

They think they're, you know, impinging

on the their holy like the right white

492

:

way to think about Lord of the rings

and you are all wrong and I'm going

493

:

to call you whatever my preferred,

you know, Uh, derogatory slur is.

494

:

Philip: Yeah.

495

:

Nathan Danneker: And so like, you know,

you know, that could also be the way

496

:

of like, you know, I'm trying to think

of a creative way to insult somebody,

497

:

so I'm going to insult, their fandom.

498

:

And it's like, Yeah,

that's, that's really just.

499

:

whatever.

500

:

I don't like it.

501

:

But we're in political

season, so it is what it is.

502

:

It's sad.

503

:

Philip: It is sad.

504

:

And, you know, it's, it's one of

those things hopefully to where.

505

:

I, I listened to a couple of like

podcasts, like making some comments on it.

506

:

You just hope that nobody then who

like, kind of finds out about Lord

507

:

of the Rings, like for the first time

or something and is like, oh, well

508

:

that's an all like right wing thing.

509

:

I don't want to like.

510

:

I don't want to watch that.

511

:

You know.

512

:

So it's just, it's a misrepresentation.

513

:

Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

514

:

Philip: A huge misrepresentation..

515

:

Yeah.

516

:

It's, It's, It's a

517

:

Nathan Danneker: Yeah, definitely.

518

:

It's yeah.

519

:

Yeah.

520

:

It's I would say it's.

521

:

I would say of the two American,

like it's not either an American

522

:

conservative or American liberal.

523

:

It is something completely different.

524

:

I mean, obviously Tolkien was

British, so obviously he's also coming

525

:

from a different Western culture.

526

:

Philip: Yeah.

527

:

Nathan Danneker: So he would have, uh, I

mean also, and he was, once again, grew

528

:

up during the World War, uh, was alive

during the world wars and everything else.

529

:

So that would change his perspective

on everything and everything else.

530

:

Whereas I imagine a lot of us,

unless oh, at least in America,

531

:

I think the only, the only war

you would probably be in would be

532

:

the Iraqi or Afghanistan veterans.

533

:

And even then there wasn't like, there

wasn't as many people who were affected

534

:

as in the world wars with Britain.

535

:

Philip: Right

536

:

Nathan Danneker: Britain, like

the whole country was affected.

537

:

Nobody was not.

538

:

Whereas.

539

:

You know, in America, with our latest,

those two latest conflicts, like, you

540

:

know, some people weren't effected at all.

541

:

Philip: Right

542

:

Nathan Danneker: You saw the headlines,

but you were like, I don't know this

543

:

person, so it's sad that they died,

but I, I can only be that much sad.

544

:

Like, I don't know anything.

545

:

Whereas like with Britain, it's like, No.

546

:

I know that that per that boy was

my, my neighbor's son or something.

547

:

Which was like the whole

different experience.

548

:

Philip: Right?

549

:

I know, Yeah.

550

:

That was something that was definitely

a very, very much like a crucial

551

:

impact on a lot of people, and you

can tell that with Tolkien as well.

552

:

Yeah.

553

:

In, uh, his life.

554

:

but.

555

:

Yeah, I think like, part of that

too, is why, what makes like Lord of

556

:

the Rings so great is that Tolkien

is drawing from his experiences.

557

:

You know, things that he really enjoyed,

like history and what not and, how

558

:

that comes through on his writings.

559

:

Yeah.

560

:

Nathan Danneker: And also, also he saw in

both world wars, he saw that eventually

561

:

the, the evil, you know, the evil lost.

562

:

But also at the same time, like kind of

what they, what he was talking about with

563

:

The Silmarillion and like also at the

same time, there's people on the good

564

:

side who are also like not super holy.

565

:

Like, I mean, you know.

566

:

Like obviously people

like, Morgoth is evil.

567

:

But Feanor, and his sons and the elves who

go to fight 'em are not that much better.

568

:

So, yeah.

569

:

so yeah.

570

:

So it's like he understood the reality,

probably from seeing the wars, like,

571

:

you know, conflict just, it's just bad.

572

:

It just, it hurts everything.

573

:

And then those who can come out

of the conflict and still rule

574

:

righteously, kind of like, you know,

what Aragorn and the other people

575

:

did at the end of the trilogy.

576

:

Philip: Yeah.

577

:

Nathan Danneker: Those are

the people you should admire.

578

:

Philip: Right.

579

:

Yeah.

580

:

Well, Thanks Nathan for

coming on and giving your, ya

581

:

know, 2 cents on everything.

582

:

Really appreciate it.

583

:

Nice to have a different

face every once in a while.

584

:

Nathan Danneker: I may get

inspired to watch season one.

585

:

So it can be on your season two reviews.

586

:

Philip: Hey man.

587

:

Yeah, that'd be great.

588

:

Yeah.

589

:

It's awesome.

590

:

Well, thanks everyone for tuning

in and, uh, hope to catch you

591

:

guys for our a next review.

592

:

of tr the official trailer for the uh,

second season of The Rings of Power.

593

:

Alrighty.

594

:

Philip Outro: Thanks for

visiting the White City.

595

:

Before you leave, please subscribe

to our podcast and check us out

596

:

at thewhitecitypodcast.com or

on YouTube or Facebook under

597

:

the tag @thewhitecitypodcast

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The White City
A commentary on The Rings of Power and anything Middle Earth or Tolkien related.

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Philip Dudt

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