Episode 29

Feanor’s Folly to Aragorn’s Ascension: Oaths in Tolkien’s Lore

Matt and Philip delve into the theme of swearing oaths in J.R.R. Tolkien's works. They analyze the consequences of these oaths through characters such as Feanor and his sons, who swear to retrieve the Silmarils, and the Men of the Dead, who are bound by an oath to Isildur until released by Aragorn. The discussion explores the implications of swearing oaths, the motivations behind them, and their impact on the characters and the story. Listeners will also hear about the contrasting motivations of characters like Beren and Luthien compared to the Sons of Feanor. The episode ends with references to Gollum’s oath to Frodo and Aragorn’s promise to Boromir in the film adaptation. Packed with insights and connections to larger themes in Middle-earth, this podcast episode offers a deep dive into the gravity of promises made in Tolkien's world.

00:00 Introduction

01:14 Feanor's Oath to Reclaim and Protect the Silmarils

07:00 The Tragic Hero: Feanor's Downfall

18:45 The Men of the Dead and Isildur's Curse

30:26 Gollum's Oath and the Master of the Precious

38:49 Aragorn's Pledge to Protect Gondor

45:20 Conclusion and Show and Tell

Transcript
Philip:

Hi, everyone.

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Thank you for tuning into

the White City Podcast.

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Today, Matt and I are going to be

talking about, swearing oaths and how,

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uh, that's played out in different

characters, from like Feanor all

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the way to the Men of the Dead.

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And, uh, you know, in situations where,

maybe it's a good thing that's been

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done, maybe it's a bad thing that's

been done, and just, going through that.

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so let's like, start off kind

of chronologically with, Feanor.

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I guess the big thing with that

is, he loses the Silmirils.

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And now he and his sons like, make

this oath to like go get them no

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matter what kind of the premise.

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Right?

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Matt: Yeah, well, I think it's, it's

stronger than that because he's talking

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about, like, they basically swear, not

only to, like, retrieve them no matter

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what, but, like, to not let anyone live if

they hold them, which comes back to bite

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them later because, basically, anytime

one of their allies, gets a hold of them.

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They're like They have to turn on

them basically Which I think is..

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I Think it's just it's Tolkien commenting

on swearing of oaths in like a Moment

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of passion, I guess so Because again you

have Feanor and his sons really Feanor

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and Being the one who's like swearing the

oath and then his sons are like, yeah,

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we're gonna follow our dad and Kind of

regretting it later Feanor doesn't have

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much time to regret it because he dies

like fairly shortly after that But yeah,

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so it's it's this sort of oath that they

basically swear like we're gonna do this

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or we'll die trying and I think that

it's kind of a comment on you have to be

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really careful in what you swear because

it it doesn't work out for them and they

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they basically are just swearing a fool's

oath to I mean on the first premise

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Even on the face of it, they're like,

we're gonna retrieve the, the Silmarils.

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Well, they're currently in the

possession of, like, the most

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powerful single entity that exists.

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good luck with that.

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I think, I think also if you compare

it to how the Silmarils are actually

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taken from Morgoth, the one, the one

Silmaril that is taken from him before.

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Uh, the, before like the, the War of

Wrath, I think is what it was called.

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The, where the, the Valar finally come

over and solve everybody's problems, of.

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Um, is through unity between,

uh, an elf and a human.

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And through like, not to be too

cliche, but like the power of love.

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Where, Beren is like, alright, I'm

gonna go cut the Silmaril out of

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his crown, and I can only do this

because Luthien is helping me.

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Which, I feel like could be a tagline for

a lot of the lay of Beren and Luthien.

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Beren does something because,

and he's only able to do

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it because Luthien's there.

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contrastingly, you have the Sons

of Feanor, who Constantly are

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infighting with the other elves.

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Uh, they're doing this They're

trying to get them, not because...

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not for anything noble, just because

they're like, It's our birthright!

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They, uh, constantly Not constantly,

but they keep attacking other

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elves that have a Silmaril.

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Because they're like, Well, we did

swear we'd kill anyone who had it.

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And It's just, it's all the wrong

reasons and all the wrong motivations

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and it's just constantly like, ah, we're

going to fight our way through this.

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And it's kind of the difference between

like, passion and love, I guess is

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one way of putting it, is where,

Beren can do this because one, he's

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not, he doesn't want the Sumrail.

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He wants Luthien.

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And getting the Silmaril is

the only way to get Luthien.

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He could care less about

the Silmaril itself.

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So it's sort of the pursuit of

something for something greater.

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Whereas with the Sons of Feanor, it's

like they want the Silmarils because

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they want the Silmarils because their

dad made them and they're kind of jerks.

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Um, so it's, and it even, The oath still,

like, it even, uh, sort of corrupts the,

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the better of his sons, where they, I

can't remember the names of the two that

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are alive at the end of the Silmarillion,

but they basically kick up a big stink

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about it, and the other elves are like,

fine, you can take them, and they pretty

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much, I think, One of them, because the

Silmarils are so pure, that people with

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ill intent can't handle them, One of his

sons throws himself into the sea because

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like, the burning is so great, and the

other one throws himself into like a

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chasm, I think, is how it's described.

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Which, one interesting tidbit with

that, it does make, it is very, it is

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interesting because you have One of the

Silmarils is in the sky, as the star.

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One of them is in the sea, and

one of them is in the earth.

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At the end of the Silmarillion,

they've like, basically the idea is

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that they've gone beyond the reach of

mortal hands until the end of the world.

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And no, the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril.

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Philip: would pheno then, would he, would

he have the same like burning in his

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Matt: Almost certainly.

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Philip: Even though he like created

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Matt: though he made them, he, again,

he's, he's one of my favorite characters

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simply because he's interesting.

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Because like, All the elves, when they

talk about Feanor, are like, Oh my

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goodness, he was this great guy, like,

this amazing artist, He, he created,

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like, the runes that we use, and he

made the Silmarils, And he was like the

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smartest elf that ever lived, But then you

actually, like, read about him, and he's

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also, like, A terrible, terrible person.

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Yeah, I think, I know I've said this

before, but it's like, Feanor is the

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best elf, and also the worst elf.

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Because he's, he's just the

worst, and it's really funny.

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Not, well, not funny.

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It's funny as a reader, it's not,

it's not funny from the perspective

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of the characters in the story.

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But he's just, he's just so...

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like he, I think Tolkien was kind of

Writing him like a tragic hero, like

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a classic Greek tragic hero, because

he just continually screws everything

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up just due to his own hubris.

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Like if he took a step back and

thought for like five minutes,

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most of the problems that happen in

Middle Earth wouldn't have happened.

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But, His whole character is that he's like

fiery and passionate and doesn't doesn't

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really think things through but thinks

he thinks things through and it just, I

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don't know it just It's that same kind

of spark of inspiration that leads to

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things like The runes and the Silmarils

and all these great things that he crafts

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Philip: Right,

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Matt: that same kind of spark that

also leads him to, you know, murder

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a bunch of his kinsmen and steal

their ships and then burn them?

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Like, it's just like,

it's, he's so dramatic.

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It's, it's fantastic.

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And then he almost immediately

gets stomped by Morgoth, and then

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his sons are like, well, dang it.

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Now we're here with no way to return.

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And we swore this stupid oath.

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And then, uh, and then they went to

war with Morgoth for like, what is it,

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like a thousand years or something?

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Philip: The simrels being like the most

like majestic crafted thing right ever

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in Middle pretty much right so I guess

maybe in a sense Feanor had a had a lot

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of arrogance and wanting to keep those

Because they were his and he made them.

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Matt: yeah, I mean that even before

he loses them, um, that's his entire

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attitude towards them is that they're

mine and No one else can have them.

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Because, So, uh, What they are, are gems

that contain the, like, most perfect,

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beautiful light of the two trees.

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And, right after Morgoth, uh So,

Morgoth sneaks into Valinor, uh,

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kills the trees, then Goes over to

Feanor's keep or halls or whatever,

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kills his dad and steals the Silmarils.

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Before Feanor knows the Silmarils

are lost, I think it's Yavanna?

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Uh, basically is like, hey, if you give

me the Silmarils, I can use the light

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you captured in them to revive the trees.

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And he's just like, no, I'm not gonna, I'm

not going to restore the more beautiful

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trees, because he's just so prideful,

and it's like, I made these things, and

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they're, like, he basically wants to hold

the most beautiful thing ever to himself,

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just because he happened to capture,

like, he didn't even, he didn't even make

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the most important, beautiful, sort of,

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Soul of the Silmarils, if you will.

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He just captured it in the Silmarils.

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But he thinks that he created them.

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Because he made the gems to capture them.

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So it's Everything about them

He's just possessive over it.

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Like, even the Silmarils themselves were

created to be possessive over something.

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Which was the light of the trees.

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of course it's a moot point because

he goes to his halls and discovers

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that Morgoth has made off with them.

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And then that's when he swears his

oath and goes and just does a lot of

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stupid things in quick succession.

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and then he dies.

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Philip: all for naught.

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Matt: like Yeah, he's like one

of the only elves that it's

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like, he's not reincarnating.

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He's just dead.

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Until like, the end of the world.

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Philip: Interesting.

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So it's not like, oh, you're dead.

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Now you get to go back to Valinor.

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You left Valinor and...

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Matt: he's like, he's like one of the

only elves where He did so much that

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he just Can't return until I, again,

all of the like apocalyptic stuff that

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Tolkien wrote about the end of Middle

earth is like non canon because it

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isn't in any of the officially published

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stories, but I want to say that Feanor

comes back at some point, and I think

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he's ha he's a little bit more chill.

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I really wish those stories had been

published in the Silmarillion, because

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they're so interesting, and they I

think the biggest loss was, um, Turin.

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Because As it is now, Turin's

story is so depressing.

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Just, it's just like, this

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is his, his life is just awful.

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And then he kills himself.

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But in Tolkien's writings about

the end of the world, Turin is the

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one that kills Morgoth for good.

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he returns and battles

Morgoth and kills him.

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And it's just like, and he

avenges basically all the evil

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that has ever happened to anyone.

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Because he kills Morgoth.

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And it's just like, that is such a better

end for Turin than just accidentally

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screwing your sister and then killing

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yourself.

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Philip: that that would be

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Matt: He did kill a dragon,

which was pretty cool, but yeah.

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Philip: getting back

onto the the oath theme.

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Yeah, so for like Feanor and his sons,

they make this oath to themselves.

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Right, so like this is

something that they're

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keeping themselves, so

they aren't really...

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they're not making an

oath to anybody, are they?

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Matt: I think they swear it, like,

they swear it, not necessarily to

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somebody else, but they, they swear

it, like, before Mandos, I believe.

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Because Mandos is the one that then shows

up and is just like, Ya done goofed!

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Um,

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Philip: is that like Because

it's considered It's called

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the Oath of Mandos, right?

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Matt: Well,

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Philip: Or is that

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Matt: there's the doom of Mandos,

which is what Mandos says right

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afterwards, where he's like, Yeah,

this is gonna fail catastrophically,

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and you're all going to die, and

you're all gonna betray each other,

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and it's just gonna be terrible, and

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Philip: and

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that's

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about the kin slang more though, right?

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Matt: Well, it's, it's the Kinslaying,

is the first instance of it, but

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like, That's where, that's part of

the reason why, like, throughout the

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Silmarillion, it's constantly, especially

with the Sons of Faenor, but it also

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happens to other strains of elves as

well, that they are constantly being

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thwarted by themselves, essentially.

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So, you have the Sons of Feanor,

like, attacking their, uh, their

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allies to get the Silmarils.

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Like, it's constantly internal threats.

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So, like, even with Turin.

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Like, Turin, comes to Nargothrond

and, Again, Turin's not an elf, but,

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Turin comes to Nargothrond and, Tells

them, basically, yeah, you should stop

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hiding, and then, a few years later,

they've been destroyed by a dragon.

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The same thing happens with Gondolin, with

Huren, um, where, Huren coming afterwards

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to try and get back into Gondolin is

what leads Morgoth to where Gondolin is.

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But you also have things like, again, like

a lot of it is Feanor's sons Basically

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Betraying everyone at some point Because

they're trying to get the Silmarils And

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so, the whole mission is just thwarted

by the Elves own infighting, which, part

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of Like, it starts immediately because

when he's just like, yeah, y'all will

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be your own worst enemies, essentially.

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There's like, immediately everyone's like,

Oh no, we can't trust each other anymore.

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And then they go kill a bunch of elves.

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So, it's, like, it's

not even that, though.

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because, Feanor Kills the Teleri,

He like, slaughters a bunch of them,

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Steals their ships, And then, sails

across the sea, leaving like, a large

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chunk of his army, of the people

that were following him, behind, and

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then they have to cross over the ice.

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like, basically they're the ones

that save the day eventually, because

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It's like them, when they finally

get to Middle-earth, it's like the

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first rising of the moon, basically.

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Pretty much instantly, Feanor's

already betraying people, like left

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and right, in, in pursuit of his oath,

which basically he swore and told

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everybody that he betrayed people.

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So it's, it's that kind of, uh, it's

that kind of just, swearing of an oath

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without really thinking it through, and

leading to just, terrible consequences.

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Which, again, I think it's a lot of

Tolkien's, uh, faith coming through

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because you have, In scripture,

there's the whole, like, let your

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yes be yes and your no be no,

don't necessarily swear oaths.

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Uh, you have that one story in

Judges, where the guy's like, I'll

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sacrifice the first thing I see!

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And then his daughter comes out

and he's just like, well, dang it.

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I think this is the biggest instance of,

again, because they, they swear it, like,

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in front of the, like, not literally in

front of the Valar, but they swear it

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and, like, basically tell the Valar, like,

look, we're gonna do this, and the Valar

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are, like, wow, y'all are stupid, but

they still get held to it, which is, I, I

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think kinda the weird dichotomy of it, is

that, Oaths are like, often, especially,

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mostly, actually, with Feanor and his

sons, they're presented as like, not a

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great idea, but they're still held to it.

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That's why they're so important.

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Now that is the main place where an

oath is kind of seen as a negative.

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Cause there are lots of other places

where it's like, somebody swearing to do

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something or swearing not to do something.

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And then the fulfillment of that oath.

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So like, the other, one of the other big

oaths that most people think of when you

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think of Lord of the Rings is, uh, and you

have it on here, the, the Men of the Dead.

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Philip: You want to

talk about that one next

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Matt: Yeah, yeah, I think we

should talk about that one next.

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Breaking their oath.

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And I think, and you have on here,

right, that they're, that what's

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keeping them there isn't necessarily

that they broke their oath.

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It's the curse of Isildur.

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Again, because I can't think of anywhere

else in the books where somebody swears

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an oath to such a high power as the Valar.

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It's usually to somebody

else kind of on their level.

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Philip: So like go into going a little

more detail about like their oath and like

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Matt: yeah, so, so, they, they

swear to Isildur who is the king of

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Gon..., uh, king of Gondor, I think.

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I always get confused.

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I always get mixed up.

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Who's king of what?

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Cause I, I, wasn't, like,

They swear to Isildur.

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We'll, we'll just say that.

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And, um, they swear to

fight against Sauron.

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And then he's like, hey, come

help me fight against Sauron.

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And they're just like, no.

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And, like, flee into the mountains.

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And Isildur is like, alright, well you

won't get to rest until you fulfilled your

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oath to one of my descendants, basically.

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And so that's when you create like, uh,

these are the paths of the dead, and

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the dead will keep them, and um, you

have the, is it like the Dunharrow road?

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Is that what they call it?

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Philip: Yeah, I think this isn't

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that like I can't

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Matt: because it's, it's at

Dunharrow is like the entrance

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to the paths of the dead.

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Philip: I think that's right

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Matt: Anyways, so they have, they have

the entrance to Dunharrow, and they have

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the paths of the dead, and then it isn't

until they fulfill their oath, and that's

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the interesting thing, too, is that

it's, it's not the oath that's binding.

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It's the curse that's

binding, in this case.

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So, Isildur curses them, and they

only find peace when Aragorn says,

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I count your oath fulfilled, and

releases them from the curse.

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Philip: In that in that situation Could

Aragorn have said no your oath's not

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fulfilled And then like, you know,

let him hang out to dry, basically.

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Matt: I, I think, technically, he

would have had the authority to.

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Now, again, I don't think Aragorn would

have done that, because he's Aragorn.

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But like, he, he could have, he,

he could have, hypothetically.

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But, again, it's, it's Isildur's

heir, Aragorn, who has the authority

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to release them from the curse.

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Because it's, he's like the

heir of the legacy that was,

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uh, I don't know, slighted, I

guess that's the word, slighted.

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And so,

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Philip: Now also, with the sword,

is it important for him to have

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a, like, the reforged sword?

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Because he's, in the book

he's had it the whole time,

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in

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the movie he doesn't get it until the end,

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Matt: they really play it up in the movie.

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Because again, yeah, in, in the book.

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He gets it as he's setting out from,

uh, as he's setting out from Rivendell.

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Elrond has his smiths reforge the

sword and just gives it to him.

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And he has it the entire time.

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because I think in, again, it's been

a while since I've read the books.

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And it's been a while

since I've seen the movies.

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But, in the movies, it comes

across much more as Aragorn

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being unwilling to be the king.

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It's in the movies.

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It's much more like Aragorn is

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like I don't want to be king, but

then by the like his whole character

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arc, he doesn't really have that

much of a character arc I don't know.

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Maybe he does but his whole his main

shift over the course of the films

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is I don't want to be king to...

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Alright, I'll be king Whereas

From what I remember of the books,

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Philip: He's

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Matt: it feels Yeah,

he's carrying the sword.

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It feels much

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Philip: of Narsil with him the

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whole

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Matt: Well, it, it, well, in the books,

he, the, I, I think the shards are Are

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they not in Rivendell in the books?

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Philip: I don't know, maybe

they, are, but I thought,

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Matt: they,

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well, cause he grows up in Rivendell.

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Philip: I thought he had

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like, some part of the

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Matt: he might have some part of it.

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But, um He has other heirlooms

of the family as well.

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Yeah, so he grows up in Rivendell.

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And then, maybe he does have the hilt?

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Because I think, uh, Elrond, when he tells

him his true heritage, he, like, presents

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him with these heirlooms of his family.

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But then, like, in the books, like,

when he sets out, he's just kind of

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like Alright, I guess I'm going south.

335

:

I guess I'm gonna go claim Gondor.

336

:

Uh, like, it's sort of

a foregone conclusion.

337

:

And I think there's a little bit of

tension between Boromir and Aragorn.

338

:

Because Boromir's like,

Gondor doesn't need a king.

339

:

And Aragorn's just like, I'm the

king, I don't really know what to say.

340

:

And so, again, it could be, it could be a

little bit different, but because, again,

341

:

the books The Lord of the Rings books are

very much like an accounting of events.

342

:

They're not, it's very plot

driven, not character driven.

343

:

So, the movies are a little

bit more character driven.

344

:

And I think if the books were

more character driven, then you

345

:

would have Aragorn being like,

Oh, I don't want to be king.

346

:

But then slowly over the course

of the adventure, he becomes king.

347

:

Like he gets convinced to be king.

348

:

But because it's, like, as good as they

are, because it's a great telling of a

349

:

story, but it's very much modeled after,

and inspired by, like, the ancient sagas.

350

:

And those, like, when you think

about, like, Beowulf, or the Odyssey,

351

:

but especially, like, the, like,

things like Beowulf, it's just,

352

:

like, Beowulf doesn't develop as a

character over the course of Beowulf.

353

:

Beowulf is just awesome.

354

:

The whole time.

355

:

He's just like, Alright, I'm

gonna go kill this monster,

356

:

and I'll go kill this monster.

357

:

And it's just like, it's, the

whole point of it is not to be

358

:

like, "Oh, let's follow Beowulf."

359

:

It's just like, Look at Beowulf.

360

:

He is cool.

361

:

Here are all the cool things he did.

362

:

it's not quite that blunt, if you will.

363

:

Not that, not that, like, I like Beowulf.

364

:

I think it's I love that

kind of storytelling.

365

:

But, The Lord of the Rings, with

characters like Aragorn, Like, the

366

:

main character that's struggling, over

the course of the story, is Frodo.

367

:

Because he's literally carrying

the weight of the ring.

368

:

that's the character that

has the internal struggle.

369

:

Aragorn, that side of the story is much

more about like, alright, frodo's off

370

:

doing his thing, now we have to deal

with Sauron's, like, attacks on the West.

371

:

And so, Aragorn is not like In the

movies, they made him a little bit

372

:

deeper of a character because that's

sort of how storytelling had shifted.

373

:

To the time that the movies were created.

374

:

But in the books, he's just a little

bit more sure of himself, and he's just

375

:

like, yeah, I'm gonna go become king,

but he's still Because, like, he still

376

:

has, reservations about becoming king

until the war has been taken care of.

377

:

Like, he only secretly enters the

city to heal Faramir and Eowyn.

378

:

He doesn't openly enter the city until,

uh, until after the ring is destroyed.

379

:

Philip: Interesting, huh?

380

:

Matt: yeah, no, he doesn't openly

enter the city as the king until

381

:

after Sauron has been defeated.

382

:

Philip: So I didn't that,

383

:

Matt: yeah, it's a, it's something

that he makes a point of doing.

384

:

Um, yeah.

385

:

But it's not because like, oh,

I don't want to be king yet.

386

:

It's like, I still have a job to do and we

can't celebrate until Sauron's defeated.

387

:

So it's, it's much more of a, like,

the symbols of the kingship, like

388

:

in the movies they make a big deal

about him, like, presenting the sword.

389

:

And I think he does in

the books too, maybe?

390

:

Again, it's been a really long time.

391

:

And that section of the books is

also, like, there's a bunch of

392

:

stuff that's not in the movies,

like, Like, there's a whole grou...

393

:

there's like an entire tribe of people

that the Rohirrim meet in, like, the

394

:

mountains of Gondor that come and

help, I think, and they're just not

395

:

mentioned, and there's, like, an entire

group of, uh, Gondorian, People from

396

:

like, outside of Minas Tirith, Like

in the movies, it's kind of like,

397

:

there's Gondor, and it's basically

like, Minas Tirith and Wilderness.

398

:

Philip: Bringing it back to the whole

399

:

oaths thing though.

400

:

While it's a

401

:

nice rabbit trail to go on.

402

:

Yeah, so basically there's an oath that

the men of the dead swear to Isildur.

403

:

They don't keep that oath when Isildur

tells them, hey, you basically are

404

:

not gonna be able to die until You,

like, come aid one of my descendants.

405

:

Now, does he say, is it one of his

descendants or one of his, uh, or does

406

:

it have to be actually, like, a king?

407

:

Because I guess, like,

Aragorn isn't necessarily king

408

:

yet when he has the sword.

409

:

Matt: it's, again, it's like, I

think, I, I can't remember how

410

:

they, what the oath is in the books.

411

:

I don't even, I think it's just, they

promise to help fight against Sauron.

412

:

They don't, and Isildur curses them.

413

:

Like, I don't think Isildur

necessarily even, actually, I don't

414

:

have my copy of the book here.

415

:

I'm going to look up.

416

:

Well, no, I won't.

417

:

Cause I don't even know what to look

up exactly, but it's like, they,

418

:

They break their oath and they just,

like Isildur is just, he curses

419

:

them and then just kind of moves on.

420

:

I think he does say something about until

your oath is fulfilled, but Because it's

421

:

like specifically they promise to fight

against Sauron, because I think they had

422

:

been allied with Sauron at one point.

423

:

And so that's why he

makes them swear the oath.

424

:

And so, it isn't until specifically

they, they fight against Sauron

425

:

that their oath is fulfilled.

426

:

So, yeah.

427

:

Philip: The only thing that I found

was, like, what Aragorn tells them.

428

:

And it's basically, like, the

same thing he says in the movie.

429

:

"

And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will

430

:

hold the Oath fulfilled, and ye

shall have peace and depart forever.

431

:

For I am Elessar,

shielder's heir of Gondor."

432

:

So anyways,

433

:

Matt: Yeah.

434

:

Again, I think those are the

most, like, prevalent oaths.

435

:

Because A lot of the other ones

are really like, personal oaths.

436

:

Um, between like, individual people.

437

:

Where they're, they're not as like, grand.

438

:

Or like, world impacting.

439

:

At least, not explicitly.

440

:

Like, you have, you have one here.

441

:

Gollum swearing to serve

the Master of the Precious.

442

:

And it's like, okay, well that

one does have pretty important

443

:

implications eventually, but it's

not Well, I, cause he He promises

444

:

to serve the Master of the Precious.

445

:

Philip: What's interesting

446

:

is, uh, when I was like, looking at it

in the book, um, one thing that came

447

:

up was, Frodo was telling him, don't

swear about it on the ring, swear, like,

448

:

swear by the ring.

449

:

Um, which is interesting, like, The

difference he was making there, but

450

:

Matt: Yeah, I'm not, I like, I

know he He says don't swear on it.

451

:

Uh, but swear by it.

452

:

Yeah, I don't know.

453

:

I'm not quite sure what

to make of that one.

454

:

Because he also, Like, he swears

not to harm Frodo, essentially.

455

:

But then, like, the rest of his arc is

kind of him trying to get out of it.

456

:

Um, So, like, he's like Well, I won't

harm Frodo, but I'll just lead Frodo to

457

:

Shelob, let her eat him, and then once she

poops him out, I'll take the ring back.

458

:

Which, you know, I don't like that he

wants to do that, but it's a pretty

459

:

solid plan, it's just that Sam's way

cooler than anyone else in the story.

460

:

Um,

461

:

Philip: I think that also, Frodo asked him

like, like, what are you wanting to do?

462

:

Like you're swearing this oath to do

like, what are you trying to keep?

463

:

I think like part of it is,

Gollum saying like, oh, I want

464

:

to like, I want to do good.

465

:

Something like that.

466

:

And the other part is that he's not

gonna let him take it or him get

467

:

it, which I think is really Sauron.

468

:

Matt: But again, I think,

I think that's mostly...

469

:

It's so hard to tell with Gollum,

because, his one overarching

470

:

motivation behind, like, everything

he does is he wants the ring back.

471

:

So when he says he won't let Sauron

get it, it's because he wants it.

472

:

It's not because he cares about

the, the goodness of the world.

473

:

He just doesn't, he just wants the ring.

474

:

Now, obviously, giving it to Gollum would

be probably the second fastest way of

475

:

getting it back to Sauron, other than

just straight up giving it to Sauron.

476

:

So, Sméagol, again, and like, I think

we've talked about this before, that he's

477

:

interesting because he ultimately doesn't

become good at the end of the story.

478

:

He kind of gets redeemed.

479

:

Because he's ultimately the

one who's directly responsible

480

:

for destroying the ring.

481

:

But it's It's entirely because

he just wants the ring.

482

:

He kind of like, for a while there, you're

like, oh, he's helping Sam and Frodo.

483

:

He's Maybe he's like, getting away

from the influence of the ring.

484

:

But in, at, at the end, he

like, relapses, basically.

485

:

And I think part of that is because

they, like, the closer you get to Mt.

486

:

Doom, the more influence

the ring has over you.

487

:

which you see played out

basically every time a character

488

:

connected to the ring goes to Mt.

489

:

Doom.

490

:

So, Isildur almost destroys it, and then

he's just like, nah, I'm gonna keep it.

491

:

And then Frodo is like,

does the same thing.

492

:

Like, he's walked all this way, and

then he's just like, nah, it's mine.

493

:

And then, again, I think that's also,

that also has an important part of, um,

494

:

Like, it's that decision by Frodo to claim

the ring that kind of triggers Gollum's,

495

:

ultimate, like, anger and relapse.

496

:

Because it's just like, well, Frodo's

been on this mission to destroy the ring,

497

:

and I think there's a part of Gollum,

like the Smeagol part of Gollum, that's

498

:

like, realizes that if the ring gets

destroyed, then he'll be free of this

499

:

like, terrible, terrible desire for it.

500

:

But as soon as Frodo is just like,

no, screw it, I'm taking the ring,

501

:

Gollum's like, no, I want the ring.

502

:

If it's not gonna be

destroyed, it's gonna be mine.

503

:

Although, again, I think that

there's Gollum is not a character

504

:

that comes across as logically

thinking through things.

505

:

He just kind of does things, and

I think it's a combination of that

506

:

and the fact that they're closer to

Mount Doom, that it's just the pull

507

:

is stronger on him, but it's really

fascinating because all these things

508

:

combined lead to Gollum taking over.

509

:

Which you could argue

Gollum never swore the oath.

510

:

It was Smeagol that swore the oath.

511

:

Um,

512

:

because yeah well there he's treated

there are times especially in the movie

513

:

but even in the books Gollum and Smeagol

are treated as two different characters

514

:

even like in the books, in the story Sam

is like there's beater and there's biter

515

:

and it's the two different sides of like

516

:

there's Gollum, who is a Gollum,

I guess, and there's Smeagol who's

517

:

like the remains of a hobbit.

518

:

And he's, he is treated very much so

as two different characters, and the

519

:

Smeagol persona has been so, like,

pushed down for so long that he's,

520

:

like, when he re-emerges, he's like very

childlike and like, innocent, and like,

521

:

kind of wants to do the right thing.

522

:

And Gollum, who is basically just the

personality of the ring, essentially,

523

:

Is like this wicked, nasty little jerk.

524

:

and that's the interesting, and

again, the interesting part of it

525

:

is that at the end, Gollum wins out.

526

:

Smeagol loses, Gollum wins, gets

the ring, and then slips and

527

:

saves the world by accident.

528

:

Um,

529

:

Philip: Yeah.

530

:

The only way

531

:

Matt: it's

532

:

Philip: can be done.

533

:

Matt: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting.

534

:

It, it is interesting, too, that, like,

Yeah, you can't save the world on purpose.

535

:

Whether you're fighting Morgoth or

destroying the ring, Can't over,

536

:

you can't overpower Morgoth, And you

can't overpower the ring, And you

537

:

either have to have The gods or fate.

538

:

Which, if you wanted to get super,

like, esoteric with it, you could argue

539

:

that, like, there is some kind of divine

intervention with, like, Eru or one of the

540

:

Valar, probably Eru, getting, basically,

causing Gollum to slip to destroy the

541

:

ring, I don't necessarily, like, I

don't necessarily think that that was

542

:

fully Tolkien's intention, because

he never like, because The Lord

543

:

of the Rings is really like, a

couple steps away from the Valar.

544

:

They're mentioned a few times and in

passing, but they're never like, like if

545

:

you just read the Lord of the Rings It's

kind of ambiguous as to whether or not

546

:

they're actually involved in anything.

547

:

Philip: general whenever they're

548

:

Matt: They're pretty general and like,

the most influence they have on the world

549

:

is like, when Frodo's in Shelob's Lair

using the, the phial, and like, calling

550

:

out to the, the one, I can't remember her

name right now, And you can kind of argue

551

:

that her power is like infusing the file,

but even that's like an artifact of them.

552

:

It's not like them

directly getting involved.

553

:

Um, and then you read the Silmarillion

and they're like characters that like

554

:

interact with elves and half the time

they're like the coolest people in

555

:

the world and half the time they just

do nothing for like a thousand years.

556

:

I think, I think Tolkien should

have showed up at some point more.

557

:

He's my favorite.

558

:

All he does is beat up Morgoth.

559

:

It's great.

560

:

Philip: That's true.

561

:

So just to go to the movie route on like

this last one, at least from like in the

562

:

movie, you got, you have Aragorn swearing

to Boromir that he's not going to let

563

:

the White City fall, which is, you know,

Minas Tirith, or his people fail, which,

564

:

in a sense, like, if you think about it,

it's like, oh, well, like, This is like,

565

:

Aragorn's like, turning point, right?

566

:

He's like, swearing an oath

to like, basically, be king.

567

:

but, Yeah.

568

:

like, out of all these that

we were talking about, I mean,

569

:

besides like, maybe, like,

with, Gollum and Frodo, maybe.

570

:

all the other ones are, have

like a really big impact, right?

571

:

Like, there's a direct like, impact

of like, you swearing an oath that

572

:

actually like, means something.

573

:

Not that this doesn't mean anything,

but these were all like, all the ideas

574

:

that I had for like, the oaths that I

could think of that were That were like

575

:

ever mentioned, but, it's interesting

how is an, there is like an impact

576

:

Matt: Yeah.

577

:

No, I, I definitely think The

oath that Aragorn swears to

578

:

Boromir in the movie, it is...

579

:

peter Jackson used that as his like,

kind of first, not first, because,

580

:

like, so in the books, Aragorn is

trying to become king because he knows

581

:

it's his destiny and his duty, but

also because Elrond basically says

582

:

you can marry Arwen when you're king.

583

:

And Aragorn's like, all right, I'm down.

584

:

In the movies, it's, they kinda move

that ball into Arwen's court, where

585

:

it's like Arwen really loves Aragorn

and he loves Arwen, and Arwen is the one

586

:

that convinces Elrond to let her marry

Aragorn, so they had to give Aragorn kinda

587

:

some other reason to become king, um,

and so they, they have this whole ark.

588

:

And I, I think it's, It

is, it's very interesting.

589

:

So, He swears the oath to Boromir.

590

:

He, Puts on Boromir's, Uh,

591

:

Philip: links.

592

:

Matt: Yeah, His, his, Armor.

593

:

Philip: Yeah.

594

:

Matt: But only on his arms.

595

:

So he has, that's like his first

turning point is, I'm adding

596

:

the Gondorian, Armor to my arms.

597

:

Then, That's like the first stage of his

like, Alright, I'm gonna become king.

598

:

Then, cause now that I'm thinking

about it, He slowly collects Gondorian

599

:

artifacts throughout the movies.

600

:

If you think about it, he gets the armor,

which is his, his kind of, So, beginning

601

:

of the fellowship, He has nothing, and

he has no intention of becoming king.

602

:

Boromir dies, he's like, alright, I

promised Boromir, I'm gonna do this.

603

:

Puts on the armor, the, the arm

armor, I can't remember what they're

604

:

called.

605

:

Um,

606

:

Philip: They're like cuffs.

607

:

Matt: they're not,

608

:

They're no, they're like,

609

:

Philip: right?

610

:

Yes.

611

:

Yes, that's right.

612

:

Matt: he puts on the bracers.

613

:

Then, he does some fighting, but

he's not fighting in Gondor yet.

614

:

He's helping Rohan.

615

:

Um, but he has taken up the identity

of, he's like, trying to help Gondor.

616

:

with like, Trying to convince

Thayoden to help, help Gondor?

617

:

Then, Paths of the Dead.

618

:

He gets the sword.

619

:

Which, in the books, Representatives

do come from Rivendell and give

620

:

him the royal banner at that point.

621

:

Because he's like, now I'm going to start

revealing myself to the people of Gondor

622

:

and be like, the king is returning.

623

:

So there is an element of that.

624

:

But, uh, they just replaced the

banner with the sword because Let's be

625

:

honest, swords are cooler than flags.

626

:

I love flags.

627

:

I've got flags all around me.

628

:

You can't see them in the camera,

but I've got flags all around me.

629

:

Um, but swords are cool.

630

:

Like, For a movie audience, it's just

like, Yay, he got a piece of cloth!

631

:

Versus, Yay, he got a sword!

632

:

Um, So he gets, he gets the sword.

633

:

So that's him being like moving from

the, I'm going to do this to the,

634

:

alright, I have the symbol of power.

635

:

I'm going to start like claiming

the identity of the king of

636

:

Gondor, which he then goes and

uses with the armies of the dead.

637

:

Then you move into, he comes out,

he helps fight at the battle of

638

:

Pelennor fields, all of that.

639

:

Then they marched to the black gate

and he's wearing the livery of Gondor.

640

:

He's got the, the white tree

on his, on his armor now.

641

:

He has taken up the like identity

of like I am now leading Gondor.

642

:

Um, I've put on more of the

Gondorianness to myself.

643

:

Um, he's actually sort of

acting as a king should.

644

:

So he starts out being

like, I'm not gonna be king.

645

:

Then he's like, all right, I'm gonna,

he's determined to become king.

646

:

Like he's decided to become king.

647

:

Then he starts claiming

the identity of the king.

648

:

Then he starts more or

less being the king.

649

:

And it's once, it's only at the very end

when he gets the coronation that he like

650

:

completes the whole persona basically.

651

:

And it's now I have fulfilled everything.

652

:

Now I am the king.

653

:

Like I am.

654

:

Ruling Gondor, I am doing all this,

and so it's the progression throughout

655

:

the movies of nothing Gondorian,

bracers, sword, armor, crown.

656

:

And I think that Aragorn swearing to

Boromir is because he sees that, like,

657

:

he sees, like, Boromir kind of reveals to

him that, like, Because at the beginning,

658

:

like Boromir is a little bit of a jerk,

um, by the end, Aragorn kind of sees,

659

:

oh, there's something worth saving here.

660

:

There's some, like, this guy really cares

and he is actually like a noble dude.

661

:

And so, and it's Boromir being like,

I would've followed you as my king.

662

:

That kind of pushes him over the edge.

663

:

So.

664

:

Yeah!

665

:

And I just put this together as I was

thinking about it, that like, it's,

666

:

throughout the movie, every time he gets

another Gondorian artifact, or piece

667

:

of kit, he like, moves one step closer

to being like, the complete, full king.

668

:

Philip: That's interesting.

669

:

yeah.

670

:

That's interesting.

671

:

Well,

672

:

Matt: Oh

673

:

Philip: so we started off by

talking about Fëanor and the elves.

674

:

Matt: boy.

675

:

Philip: here is Elrond and Arwen

676

:

to represent the elves.

677

:

And then we also talked

about the Men of the Dead.

678

:

So this here is the King

of the Dead with his crown.

679

:

Matt: Very Halloween y.

680

:

Philip: Yes, very Halloween in the spirit.

681

:

He's also very dead too.

682

:

Matt: Yeah, does he glow in the dark?

683

:

Philip: He does glow in the dark.

684

:

He does glow in the dark.

685

:

And uh, we talked

686

:

Matt: color, sort of.

687

:

Philip: kind of about Frodo

and Sam and Gollum and

688

:

Matt: Frodo and Sam and G That's great.

689

:

Gollum's oath to never..

690

:

Philip: To never, he

swore on the precious.

691

:

That was, yeah, he swore by the precious.

692

:

However, in the movie,

he swore on the precious.

693

:

He didn't swear by it.

694

:

And then, to just kind of cap it off,

we got Elendil who is the first king,

695

:

Matt: Oh, yes.

696

:

Let's just

697

:

Quick tangent, doesn't in the movie

he, um, He's like, gonna swear by

698

:

the, the master of the precious.

699

:

Philip: On the, on the

700

:

Matt: Which then, Which then, Frodo

doesn't want to do because that's Sauron.

701

:

Even though Sam, uh, Gollum's

saying that's like him, like Frodo.

702

:

Philip: Oh, making him the

master because he's the master

703

:

of the ring kind of a thing?

704

:

Or,

705

:

Matt: yeah, yeah, yeah, but he

doesn't want him to swear by Sauron.

706

:

Philip: Yeah,

707

:

Matt: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt

your, uh, your showing off of your

708

:

Philip: But, Yeah.

709

:

but then, yep, just, I was just

like showing this guy, who's a

710

:

Elendil but just connecting him

with the whole king line and all.

711

:

Matt: Yeah.

712

:

Philip: There is a, well these, to

give it kind of like a side note, these

713

:

are the uh, these are Hasbro action

figures that whenever the movies came

714

:

out, me and my brother were like,

like looking for them in every store,

715

:

or we would go online and get them.

716

:

Um, when we were younger, we always

felt like, oh we should go to the

717

:

store, we shouldn't just go online

and cheat, you know what I mean?

718

:

We had to go to like

the store and find them.

719

:

But, um, we got some pretty cool

characters from that and I thought I'd

720

:

do some show and tell at some points.

721

:

Thanks everybody for listening and,

uh, catch us for the next episode.

722

:

Thanks.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for The White City
The White City
A commentary on The Rings of Power and anything Middle Earth or Tolkien related.

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Philip Dudt

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