Episode 39

Evil Cannot Destroy Evil: Review on The Rings of Power Season 2, Episode 6

Philip brings back Nathan Danneker to discuss the 6th episode of The Rings of Power, Season 2. They explore multiple storylines including the dwarf and elf relations around Sauron, the harfoots and the stranger, and Sauron's manipulations. Other points of interest focus on the worldview coming from #ROP and the Stranger’s rambling storyline.

Research Links:

  • Visit Our Website - Find every podcast episode with links to where you can listen to our podcast along with links to our other sites like YouTube and Facebook. https://thewhitecitypodcast.com/
  • YouTube Channel - Subscribe to our Channel and find short form content! http://www.youtube.com/@thewhitecitypodcast
  • Facebook Page - Follow our page https://www.facebook.com/TheWhiteCityPodcast/
  • Instagram Page - Find Reels Here https://www.instagram.com/the_white_city_podcast/

00:00 Overview

00:56 Introduction of Guest and Focus of this Episode

02:01 Arondir's Brief Appearance

03:21 Celebrimbor's Struggle with the Nine

05:14 Sauron's Manipulations

13:42 Durin and Disa's Dilemma

18:48 Adar and Galadriel's Confrontation

21:54 Evil Can't Destroy Evil

23:02 The Stanger's Wandering Storyline

28:53 The Reason For Tom's Seriousness

32:56 How the Numenor Storyline Connects

34:43 Elendil's Trial and Miriel's Christ Like Sacrifice

41:28 The Stranger's Identity Debate

44:49 THE SEIGE OF EREGION

47:48 Sauron's Involvement Going Forward

54:54 Final Thoughts

57:38 Conclusion

58:28 Correcting Misinformation

Transcript
Philip:

There are definitely some things to be said about worldview in the Sixth

2

:

episode of The Rings of Power Season Two.

3

:

We've got Sauron's evil devices

in manipulating Celebrimbor,

4

:

the nature of the orcs, and the

impossibility of evil, destroying evil.

5

:

So Nathan Danneker is back on the

podcast to join me in flushing out

6

:

these storylines and hopefully there is

something new to learn about Tolkien.

7

:

So with that, let's dive right in.

8

:

Philip Intro: Welcome, my lords, to

the White City, where you will learn

9

:

more about Middle-earth and discover

differences and similarities between

10

:

the Rings of Power show and Tolkien's

books, and whether Amazon's show,

11

:

episode by episode, is worth watching.

12

:

I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll

be joined by Matt Vandevort and

13

:

Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.

14

:

Philip and Nathan: Hey everybody, thanks

for tuning in to The White City Podcast.

15

:

I have with me my guest back in

The White City, Nathan Danneker,

16

:

and it's good to have you back.

17

:

Well, thanks for getting me back.

18

:

Yeah, sure thing.

19

:

And this time we're going to

be reviewing episode six of The

20

:

Rings of Power show, season two.

21

:

And I guess we have, I believe,

three different storylines.

22

:

Yes, I believe so.

23

:

The dwarf and the elf, the Eregion and

the, um, the Moria storylines are kind

24

:

of mixed with this one because Sauron

is going back and forth between the two.

25

:

Um, but then we also have the

stranger and hobbits out in Rhune.

26

:

Um, and then in the beginning, there's a

little bit with Arondir but it's like a,

27

:

basically just the, the description of

28

:

um, all the orcs that are going

to, uh, make Eregion have a

29

:

very bad day, or, several days.

30

:

So, cause it's a siege.

31

:

Yes.

32

:

Yeah, so we can start with that, I know

the scene with Arondir was a little odd.

33

:

It was, yeah.

34

:

That they just put him for like, one

opening scene and then like, that was it.

35

:

Yeah.

36

:

And which, too, is kind of a shame

because I think he's one of the

37

:

better characters in the show.

38

:

Especially, like, the best elf.

39

:

Um, and, so he really

portrays the the the elf.

40

:

Um, he gives, like, the whole elf

character, like, a good representation.

41

:

Yeah.

42

:

I think.

43

:

Yeah, also the, the idea of, like,

him, like, I, I know of, I've, I've

44

:

been listening to other podcasts.

45

:

I've heard the complaints about, like,

the elves aren't magical enough, but like

46

:

when I see Arondir fight, I don't know if

they're like doing this on purpose, but he

47

:

always seems to be moving like everybody

else is moving in slow motion and he's

48

:

like so fast compared to everybody

else or like that's his like, um, like

49

:

even Galadriel weirdly, like Galadriel

doesn't seem to be moving as fast as

50

:

Arondir is, um, which is strange because

Galadriel should be way stronger than him.

51

:

Um, but you know, it is what it is.

52

:

It's, it's the story direction.

53

:

Um, which we will be talking about

Galadriel later on because she does

54

:

show up in this, in this episode, so.

55

:

Right.

56

:

So, do you want to start, so, the

Arondir scene starts off, and then

57

:

the first one, the first scene we

do with is, uh, Lord Celebrimbor

58

:

trying to make the nine, I believe.

59

:

So.

60

:

Right.

61

:

Yeah.

62

:

Can you give kind of like a

breakdown of what happens there?

63

:

Yeah, so from what I remember, um, so I

watched it as it, the weekend it came out.

64

:

Um, so from what I remember,

he's like very frustrated.

65

:

He seems to, um, especially, it seems

to be the, the revelation from about

66

:

the seven and the the quote unquote flaw

that's in it because of how I guess how

67

:

Amazon is describing it is because he

lied to Gil-Galad that lie is infecting

68

:

his work, and plus everything else he's

been doing and was everything else is

69

:

with Sauron so he's struggling because

his heart's not pure to make the nine pure

70

:

and that's what he really wants to do, is

because he is, that is the big thing for

71

:

him, is he's convinced, like, he gives..

72

:

Men have any kind of power,

they will instantly corrupt.

73

:

No matter what.

74

:

And so he is like, that's like his one

main goal is, I want to make the Nine,

75

:

like, you can't be corrupted by the Nine.

76

:

Which, obviously, Sauron is, uh,

playing into that a little bit.

77

:

Um.

78

:

I think that's one of my favorite.

79

:

I, I've, so I, I didn't

watch season one a lot.

80

:

I maybe watched a few clips.

81

:

Um, so I started watching season two and

everything else and, uh, kind of off the,

82

:

I got my summary of season one based off

of Mark, which is your other, one of your

83

:

other co hosts, um, and you, of course.

84

:

And so I, I kind of knew the

storyline and everything else,

85

:

um, but just seeing, seeing how

the actor portrays Sauron and how,

86

:

I guess, how devilish he is, and how,

how much he, he can convince people to

87

:

like, basically think they're working

for themselves, but he is actually

88

:

just manipulating them to do exactly

what he wants, um, is, is amazing

89

:

considering how short of a time it is.

90

:

It's like, he has done such a good

job of portraying Sauron, um, that

91

:

it's um, at least for the Amazon

version of Sauron, which the I feel

92

:

feel like for this one, so in the

books and everything else, Sauron is

93

:

portrayed as more of a, he does go and

like, trick the elves and everything

94

:

else, but he has a lot more power.

95

:

He's not..

96

:

And so in the Amazon series, obviously

Sauron doesn't have Mordor, Adar has...

97

:

He has, in the books, he

has control of Mordor.

98

:

So he has an army and everything else.

99

:

So he's, he's just.

100

:

Sauron does.

101

:

Yeah, Sauron does, yeah.

102

:

Um, Adar doesn't exist at

all, you know, nothing else.

103

:

Um, so he has that in his back

pocket of like, okay, hey, if I

104

:

can't trick them, um, I can just send

my army and just use brute force.

105

:

Whereas in the show Sauron

doesn't have any army.

106

:

He has to trick everybody.

107

:

Yeah.

108

:

Um, he has to manipulate because

that is the only thing he has.

109

:

Which, ironically enough, is, um, I'm

assuming this is where they're eventually

110

:

going to go, is like when he, I'm assuming

he's going to go to Numenor, eventually.

111

:

Like, this is just like, building up

to like, I think what's going to be

112

:

his masterpiece of like, basically,

manipulating his way out of prison

113

:

into basically controlling Numenor, um.

114

:

So, um, I'm, I'm very interested how

they're going to handle that storyline.

115

:

And I'm, it's, I doubt it's going to

be this season, so probably season

116

:

three, if they go on to the next one.

117

:

Um.

118

:

Right there, they might do five seasons

actually, if they can make it work.

119

:

Yeah.

120

:

So, um, so yeah, so that was good.

121

:

And, and the fact of like, Um especially

in the beginning, like, I think it was

122

:

Arondir, speaking of Arondir, I think

it was like the Elves Don't Forget,

123

:

and Celebrimbor forgot the, the Elf

Smith's lady's name, it was like Merania?

124

:

Yeah.

125

:

Yeah, Merania.

126

:

Yeah, and.

127

:

Merenda, Merania?

128

:

Yes.

129

:

Or something like that.

130

:

Yeah.

131

:

Yeah.

132

:

And like, you could see his hand,

I think it was this one where

133

:

he was like, his hand was like

shaking when he was looking at it.

134

:

Right, yeah.

135

:

And it's like, you can tell, like,

Like, he is under a lot of stress.

136

:

He is, like, losing it.

137

:

Um, I think it was the previous,

uh, in this episode, he was like,

138

:

um, you know, sometimes you just

have to lose yourself to your work.

139

:

I forget.

140

:

I'm paraphrasing.

141

:

Sauron's like, sometimes you just

need to lose yourself to work to,

142

:

to get what you need done because

that's what he wants them to do.

143

:

Because he knows that if he gives

Adar too much time, he's just

144

:

going to wipe everything out.

145

:

Um, and he'll live because he's Sauron

he's done it before, he's escaped.

146

:

He's..

147

:

But he won't have his rings for

men to corrupt Um, so, yeah.

148

:

Right, which I think is lore accurate

that he's at Eregion trying to forge the

149

:

rings when, like, he attacks Eregion.

150

:

Um, when the orcs do.

151

:

So, that is interesting.

152

:

Yeah, I think it's cool that they're

tying in with Sauron especially.

153

:

Mhm.

154

:

different ways of doing magic, so.

155

:

Yes.

156

:

Um, obviously he's influencing

Celebrimbor to make the rings.

157

:

And then, was it like, oh yeah,

it was saying that, um, that

158

:

people wanted an audience, right?

159

:

With, uh, Celebrimbor, but

he's like, no I can't do it.

160

:

So Annatar's like, oh let me

do it, you know, I got this.

161

:

And he goes out and he just

tells everybody like, Alright

162

:

guys, I'm now like, you know,

163

:

in charge, doing all the administration,

so If you have anything, come to me.

164

:

So he does a good job of

like, of flipping that.

165

:

Yeah.

166

:

Doing it in his favor, kind of

like what you were talking about.

167

:

Yeah.

168

:

And then, and then later on too, when

Um, when Celebrimbor, Celebrimbor is

169

:

trying to figure out what's going on.

170

:

When the siege starts.

171

:

Right.

172

:

And the Annatar is like, oh,

just yeah, just come outside,

173

:

just see everything's fine.

174

:

And he completely

changes things and he he.

175

:

Oh, wow, this is just, this is

just beautiful, you know, whatever.

176

:

And he goes back inside

and then he flips it back.

177

:

Well, he, he drops the illusion.

178

:

Right.

179

:

And you see what's actually going on.

180

:

Yeah.

181

:

Yeah.

182

:

So, I think that where the show

has lacked magic in a lot of ways

183

:

is kind of showing up with Sauron.

184

:

Yes.

185

:

Um, so which, yeah, honestly,

like in a lot, in other areas,

186

:

the magic doesn't show up as

much as as it does with him Yeah.

187

:

Um thinking about that but so.

188

:

I, I really appreciated that illusion

scene because it showed that Sauron was

189

:

like, alright, he's about to get away.

190

:

I need to pull, I need to actually

use some of my power to actually

191

:

not convince him to do that.

192

:

So like, I think it was like he just

like, as, as he was closing his eyes,

193

:

he was like, he just closed his eyes

and said some words of power, I'm

194

:

assuming in the, the tongue of uh, Mor

or whatever the black Black Speech.

195

:

Yeah.

196

:

Yeah.

197

:

Um, and then like the, also the crazy

thing is, um, about that scene is you,

198

:

you, you recognize the siege starts at

night and Celebrimbor has lost it so

199

:

much he doesn't know, he doesn't notice

that Sauron has switched it today.

200

:

Yeah.

201

:

Like that immediately, like if

I was, somebody stuck in a room,

202

:

like, and I was like with it.

203

:

Like just that would be like,

something's off and Celebrimbor

204

:

doesn't even notice at all.

205

:

And so like, yeah, he is, he

is, he's, he's, he's toast.

206

:

Like he is, he is a broken elf.

207

:

Um, and Sauron is, is

basically using him like putty.

208

:

Um, so yeah, I think that I, something

we've touched on before, but is also

209

:

interesting for like, for episodes

210

:

mm-Hmm

211

:

in the future is how

Celebrimbor faces against Sauron

212

:

mm-Hmm

213

:

the end.

214

:

Yeah.

215

:

Right.

216

:

Because Celebrimbor actually

in the lore fights him

217

:

mm-Hmm

218

:

in combat.

219

:

Mm-Hmm

220

:

But you don't really see this

Celebrimbor like doing that.

221

:

Right.

222

:

For him to pick up a sword

and like start swinging it.

223

:

You're like, oh, okay.

224

:

Like, I guess, uh, I

guess he's pulling out.

225

:

I could, I could see it of like.

226

:

Like him, because you, you kind

of see in like the beginning,

227

:

like he's getting frustrated with

his work and everything else.

228

:

So like I could see when he realizes

that Sauron, um, actually is, you know,

229

:

Annatar is Sauron and everything else

and he's been tricked all this time,

230

:

I could see him just like, like flipping a

switch and just going like full berserker

231

:

rage mode at Sauron, like for a fight.

232

:

And kind of doing well just because

he's so mad, but then Sauron will just

233

:

eventually overpower him because he's

just so mad he doesn't have control.

234

:

Right.

235

:

Um, so that's how I would do it.

236

:

I don't know how Amazon's going to do it.

237

:

Um, but yeah, um, yeah, I, I obviously, I

don't, I'm not as associated, I'm not as

238

:

good with the lore and everything else.

239

:

I did not realize the Nine were

being forged when the siege

240

:

was happening in the books.

241

:

Um, I assume that was added, but Okay.

242

:

Yeah.

243

:

Yeah.

244

:

And that's, that's That's neat.

245

:

I mean, they're sticking to a certain

point, sticking to the lore, and you I

246

:

mean From what I can tell, I think that

in this season, they've done it better

247

:

than they did in the previous season.

248

:

Yeah, for the timeline they've created,

they've done better, because they've

249

:

moved things around so much that it can't,

um it can't stick truly to the books.

250

:

Um, so, yeah, and then I think the next

one is, is it the dwarves or the hobbits?

251

:

I forget which one is first.

252

:

Oh, we can talk about the dwarves.

253

:

Yeah.

254

:

Yeah, the dwarves.

255

:

Yeah.

256

:

So, um, uh, I think, I think

my favorite good character.

257

:

So, my favorite evil character

is definitely Sauron.

258

:

My favorite good character

is Durin IV and Disa.

259

:

Like, that, that couple, like, just the

simple conversation of the first one of

260

:

like, when, when they're back in their

home, and, um, Durin like, you asked

261

:

for the rings, and Disa's like, I know.

262

:

And like, she is owning up to like,

this is, like, you know, first

263

:

off it was like, obviously it's

Durin III's mistake to accept it,

264

:

but she was the one who pushed it.

265

:

And she's seeing, oh, I got tricked.

266

:

So I need to now, with his, her husband,

I need to stop my father in law from

267

:

ruining Khazad-dûm with this ring.

268

:

And, um, it's also like, um,

interesting to see how fast the

269

:

greed comes in and everything else.

270

:

How fast, like, Durin III is,

like, wanting to hoard treasures.

271

:

Like, he never did that before

in the rest of the season.

272

:

Um.

273

:

And like, the treasure gathering

scene, where all of them are just

274

:

like, dumping things at the throne.

275

:

Um, and, and then also the um, I think

right after that dumping scene, it's

276

:

when Annatar comes and asks for Mithril.

277

:

And Durin III says, nah.

278

:

And Durin IV's like, oh good,

there's something in my father

279

:

that's like, good and noble.

280

:

That he's like, yeah, he recognizes

that Annatar is not who he says he

281

:

is, which I, I, I love Durin IV, who's

like, no, I don't trust this guy.

282

:

He's, he's my, he's my dwarf.

283

:

Um, and Durin III's

like no, he'll be back.

284

:

I just wanted a better deal.

285

:

I was like, and Durin IV like, what?

286

:

Um, um, and that's when they start,

uh, that's when they do the, the

287

:

whole, the, that bat scene where,

um, Disa calls down the bats on the

288

:

people who are trying to mine more.

289

:

Um, I'm very curious

to see where that goes.

290

:

Um, and everything else.

291

:

Um, Yeah, it's interesting,

the guy who, uh, Uh, who is

292

:

leading that mining expedition.

293

:

Yeah.

294

:

is Narvi.

295

:

Yeah.

296

:

Who made the door, or helped Celebrimbor

at least, make the door for Moria.

297

:

Um, and I don't think he gets

much notice, um, in the lore.

298

:

But, it is cool to have him as

more of a, I guess, bigger player

299

:

in the story, in the episode.

300

:

Yeah.

301

:

Um.

302

:

Yeah, I because I do like

I do like his character.

303

:

Yeah, but and of course the thing he's

just doing what the king says because

304

:

like he's just being obedient in a lot

of ways, but I feel like the same time

305

:

though he's like, no, I yeah I know

that this isn't the right thing to do.

306

:

Yeah, he's he's just he's kind of like a

he's like a guy who has a job, and he's

307

:

happy with his job and I yeah, sometimes

it may ask him to do things he doesn't

308

:

like, but he's like, I'm happy with my

job, so I'm just gonna stick with it.

309

:

Um, that's kind of the

vibe I got from him.

310

:

Um, he's like, I don't want to, when

he confronts, when Disa confronts

311

:

him, he's like, please move.

312

:

Like, I'm on orders of the king,

I don't want to do anything.

313

:

Like, please.

314

:

He's like, I don't want conflict,

I just, he ends like, and then, you

315

:

know, eventually she has, he has to,

um, and then she calls out the bats

316

:

on him, uh, uh, him and his crew and,

um, yeah, that was, that was cool.

317

:

Um, I forget, I forget in the show

because, so this is kind of later

318

:

on when, uh, Sauron comes back.

319

:

I don't remember him because he nicked,

he has that container of mithril.

320

:

I forget, I forget if there was a

scene of him like, like stealing it

321

:

from like a storage or someplace.

322

:

I forget.

323

:

Yeah.

324

:

Um, that is one, I guess, kind of

Easter egg that I picked up after, um,

325

:

watching a review of the episode as well.

326

:

And what they're saying is that

when he cut his hand, that's when he

327

:

actually like made the mithril, like

kind of conjured it up to make it look

328

:

like mithril, but it actually isn't.

329

:

Hmm.

330

:

Okay.

331

:

Um, so.

332

:

But yeah, me too, but because I couldn't

really remember connecting the two I

333

:

remember it those two things happening

334

:

Yeah

335

:

and I think I think this has happened

for me like multiple instances in the

336

:

show where I don't I don't know how

things connect and there's another part

337

:

in in this episode actually between

Ala Adar and we can talk about it.

338

:

Um, like uh in a little bit here,

but between Adar and Galadriel.

339

:

And Galadriel mentioned something about

the rings, and it's like, that Sauron

340

:

wants to make, and it's like, wait a

second, like, how did she know that

341

:

Sauron was wanting to make more rings?

342

:

Because, no, like.

343

:

That was something that,

is she just assuming that?

344

:

I assume, I assume she's probably

assuming that, Um, because, I, from

345

:

what, from what I understand, I

think she understands, like, like

346

:

Sauron wants to control all races.

347

:

So in order to do that, he has

to make rings for all races.

348

:

Um, so the, the main three are of

course elves, men, dwarves, um, I

349

:

don't think anybody outside of the

stranger knows about the halflings yet.

350

:

Um, and the Easterlings, obviously

the Easterlings know about 'em.

351

:

Um, so they're not, they

don't know them, um.

352

:

So yeah, so I think that's the first,

the first confrontation, the first

353

:

conversation that, um, Galadriel and

Adar have, is talking about that, um,

354

:

and it's, it's shown that Adar really

doesn't want an alliance, Adar just wants

355

:

info, he's just dangling an alliance in

front of them, um, which I think it would

356

:

be an interesting thought experiment if

357

:

if, if a character like Adar actually

existed in Tolkien's lore, like kind

358

:

of like somebody like, um, you know,

Morgoth and Ungoliant, you know, like

359

:

Ungoliant didn't want to work, you

know, fought Morgoth and like, is not,

360

:

is not technically allied with Morgoth.

361

:

Right, except they did

in the very beginning.

362

:

And did in the beginning, but like after

that, they're like always kind of at odds.

363

:

Um, even though they're both evil.

364

:

That's true because she..

365

:

It was interesting, yeah, because

she did try to take him out.

366

:

Yes.

367

:

You know, she, she's like,

she, she was pretty powerful.

368

:

Like more powerful than, she got

to be more powerful than Morgoth.

369

:

Yeah.

370

:

Yeah.

371

:

And Morgoth only got saved because, um,

I think his Balrogs came and saved him.

372

:

Yeah.

373

:

Yep.

374

:

Yeah.

375

:

So I remember that.

376

:

Um, and so like, they have

no love for each other.

377

:

And so, I'm assuming, correct me if

I'm wrong, but I'm assuming the story

378

:

with Adar, he's one of the original

elves that Morgoth twisted into orcs?

379

:

Is that correct?

380

:

Yeah.

381

:

Okay, that's what I got.

382

:

Cause like, in the episode 2, when

they're talking, she says, Galadriel

383

:

calls him an orc, and he says no, Uruk.

384

:

Which is interesting

because, I don't know.

385

:

It's like, he seems like

he's more of a broken Elf

386

:

Yeah

387

:

Than like, than an like

an, like an orc or an uruk.

388

:

Yeah.

389

:

You know?

390

:

Yeah.

391

:

I just, yeah.

392

:

Mm-Hmm.

393

:

. It's a little bit con, uh,

confusing there, but Yeah.

394

:

But I mean, he, he is unique.

395

:

He is, he's the only one of his kind I

think that at least we see in the show.

396

:

Right.

397

:

Um, so, but.

398

:

Yeah, so they have that

conversation, you know, he offers, he

399

:

shows them the crown.

400

:

I guess it was Morgoth's crown

that Sauron refashioned to fit him.

401

:

They used in the beginning of the season

to use to like, to um, uh destroy his

402

:

mortal form in the first, the first, the

intro sequence of the first episode and

403

:

then he shows it again and Galadriel's

gonna be like, you know, like put off,

404

:

he is like, that's Morgoth's crown.

405

:

Um, and she, he's like, yeah, basically

I'm like, I'm using evil to destroy evil.

406

:

Um, which I don't think

in Tolkien ever works.

407

:

Mm.

408

:

Um.

409

:

That's a good point.

410

:

So, um, that's another reason, I

think that's another reason, going

411

:

back to that is like, the reason why

Morgoth's crown didn't kill Saron

412

:

is evil can never destroy evil.

413

:

Um, you have to have, you, you have to

have an act of good destroying evil.

414

:

Like an example like later on, of

course, in The Lord of the Rings

415

:

series, um, the only way Sauron is

actually defeated is when the ring

416

:

is destroyed by sacrificing it.

417

:

Yeah, not by using the ring.

418

:

Not by using the ring.

419

:

Like Boromir wants to do.

420

:

right yeah Or other other characters.

421

:

um um So, so yeah, so

that was interesting.

422

:

And then we go into the story

of the Stranger and the hobbits?

423

:

Well, the halflings, I guess

they're not, I don't know if

424

:

they're called hobbits yet.

425

:

They're called harfoots.

426

:

Harfoots.

427

:

Yeah.

428

:

Which I guess is Mm-Hmm.

429

:

a word that Tolkien used.

430

:

Mm-Hmm.

431

:

for like halflings.

432

:

Yeah.

433

:

Yeah.

434

:

I think it was also interesting,

I how they're using Tom Bombadil,

435

:

um, in, in this one as like he is

the, I guess the representation of

436

:

the, I guess the Valar in this area

to like with the, uh, the wizards.

437

:

Um, and so, I am curious how

they're going to take it.

438

:

I'm wondering because he says you have

to choose your friends or your destiny

439

:

when he, at the end of the conversation.

440

:

Um, and I'm curious if he's trying

to, if he's giving him a test of like,

441

:

hey, um, Are you going to just go

seek power, which is your destiny, you

442

:

know, what he's calling your destiny,

or are you going to go and do the

443

:

right thing and save your friends?

444

:

Um, which, that's what I would

consider the right thing.

445

:

I don't know how Amazon's gonna handle it.

446

:

Um, Right, but, it's, what he's, what

he's showing there, and it's, again,

447

:

like, Unless in the end, the stranger is

able to do something really courageous,

448

:

heroically, and saves everybody, and

like, they do that well, which I think

449

:

is like, kind of where they're putting

it, so that's why they're stretching

450

:

things out in such a long way.

451

:

Cause it's like, alright, well, maybe

helping his friends is his destiny.

452

:

Yes So, but I'm yeah, it's just, it

just seems like there could be more of

453

:

a direct way of him going about things.

454

:

Yes then then this and I think I think

that would be helpful because like

455

:

the closest the closest thing you have

have to this and you kind of go back

456

:

to the way that Gandalf appeared back

to Aragorn Legolas and Gimli right was

457

:

kind of the closest thing to him coming

to Middle-earth for like the first time

458

:

right and you could kind of like think

about where he had to be in a sense

459

:

like reborn and kind of like understand

like languages again more or less.

460

:

That's kind of what they got across

Yeah in some of those scenes and

461

:

I think and that is true, too

I believe, uh, with the lore.

462

:

So anyways with that it just doesn't

seem like the stranger would need to be

463

:

learning that's like all these things

for this long of a time in order to get

464

:

to like what he wanted to do um, and

I think too that would that would that

465

:

would help the story to make things a

little more interesting, I think and

466

:

also just like give him more like more

reason to be in the show and more like,

467

:

yeah, more like, um, more of a, hey,

this is pointing where you need to get

468

:

to because thinking about this as well,

469

:

and of course this is, this is kind

of a little bit scrambling around

470

:

maybe, but you know, so on the Harfoots

and the stranger still, the black

471

:

wizard is, is, is cool, but I think

almost that he's just another detour.

472

:

Yeah.

473

:

in, in the storyline.

474

:

Yeah, he's, he's like, he's like the,

um, I guess how you would describe it

475

:

is like he's a, um, in the storyline,

it would be like in The Fellowship of

476

:

the Ring, like he is, he is a Balrog.

477

:

He's a scary threat, but he's

isolated and located in one area.

478

:

And doesn't do much outside of that.

479

:

Yeah.

480

:

Whereas, like, the main side

is Sauron, who's trying to

481

:

affect all of Middle-earth.

482

:

Um, which he's, he's

doing throughout the show.

483

:

Like, like, um, like, I understand

what Tom Bombadil's trying to do.

484

:

Like, they're trying to use Tom

Bombadil basically saying, like,

485

:

Hey, if the Dark Wizard and Sauron

team up, it's going to be a bad time.

486

:

Which I agree, but you've shown us nothing

that they even know each other exists.

487

:

So why would they ever team up if

they don't know each other exists?

488

:

Um, like the, um, like one of the ones

in, um, like in The Hobbit, the Smaug

489

:

and then the, um, the orcs and goblins

don't actually, like, work together.

490

:

They all just kind of end up

all at the, um, uh, Erebor.

491

:

And, you know, Smaug dies

first and then they have the

492

:

fight and then everything else.

493

:

Um, So like it's it's unknown as

described in the book if actually they

494

:

were trying to work together or like

somebody was trying to make them all work

495

:

together and they just you know Smaug

just died before the orcs and goblins

496

:

could reach him um oh as in if if Smaug

it would be like Smaugs would be like

497

:

basically attack the orcs as well because

he's still like hoarding his jewels.

498

:

Yeah yeah so it's it's like it's

like unknown because also the other

499

:

thing like the show throughout

the show is like Adar is obviously

500

:

evil, but he's fighting Sauron.

501

:

Like, there is, they've given us no

indication that the Dark Wizard, when he

502

:

sees Sauron, immediately joins his side.

503

:

Like, we, we can't, we can't assume that.

504

:

Like, Tom Bombadil's telling us we

should assume that, but, that's it.

505

:

Um, and I love, you know, I love Tom, I

love his characteristic on Tom of like,

506

:

you know, like, He's obviously very wise,

but he's also like care, kind of carefree.

507

:

Um, but also at the same time, I think

he's more serious because like when

508

:

we see him in The Fellowship of the

Ring, the little bit in the books, um,

509

:

he is, he seems to be very carefree.

510

:

It's also set, you know, millennia later,

um, which to him probably doesn't matter

511

:

much, but he also is dealing with hobbits,

which are very different from an Istar.

512

:

Um, so I think..

513

:

Also, he might have been told

by the Valar, hey, there's an

514

:

Istar going to be coming to you,

or I don't know, something else.

515

:

And so he understands, okay, I need

to actually be serious now, and not

516

:

just my normal carefree self, because

I have, I've been given a mission.

517

:

Um, and so, that's, that's the

thing, like, that's the only reason

518

:

I can think of, like, why is he

more serious than he's shown, like,

519

:

in the books and everything else.

520

:

Um, But, once again, that's also a, uh,

that's a wild, you know, conjecture.

521

:

Uh, that I'm assuming Amazon's

making for their show.

522

:

This is why Tom Bombadil is, uh, more

serious than he shows in the book.

523

:

Where in the book, he's like

very carefree and doing crazy

524

:

things and like whatever else.

525

:

Yeah, that would be the

only, the only reason,

526

:

I guess like that's a good point.

527

:

I didn't think about that.

528

:

That would make him more serious.

529

:

Um, but at the same time like he I think

could be, would be at least a little

530

:

more jollier or like a little more like

or singing more songs, you know than

531

:

that Yeah, and I think the whole idea

behind his character is is different.

532

:

Yeah, by the way that

Amazon's betraying him.

533

:

Yes.

534

:

Yeah.

535

:

Um, so, of course they're

taking some liberties there.

536

:

Um, I think it is kind of weird how

Tom Bombadil tells the Stranger that

537

:

he needs to like prepare for the dark,

for facing up against the dark wizard.

538

:

Um, and maybe even Sauron.

539

:

Maybe, maybe, maybe he was saying Sauron,

540

:

more so, uh, than the Dark Wizard.

541

:

Yeah, I forget the exact wording.

542

:

Anyways, I guess if, it was Sauron,

then, like, my point is kind of null.

543

:

But, I just think that him going up

against the Dark Wizard is kind of

544

:

a side, like it's like a sidetrack.

545

:

You know, like It just seems to me

that they're building up so Like,

546

:

they're building up so many things

here, you know, out in, uh, Eregion.

547

:

Oh, there you go.

548

:

Eregion.

549

:

Yeah, Eregion.

550

:

And, um, And as we, well, I don't know

if you can see it, but Rune, this is

551

:

Eregion, and Rune's all the way over here.

552

:

Which, uh, you know, that's big distance.

553

:

Yeah, it is a big distance, but

still, like, um, yeah, I can't

554

:

see where Lindon's on there.

555

:

I thought they would have it, maybe.

556

:

But, yeah, I mean.

557

:

Lindon is, I thought it would

be somewhere around here.

558

:

I mean, that's not too close to Moria.

559

:

But, anyways.

560

:

Um, yeah, so.

561

:

It is, seems like there's a, now that

there's really a split in the storyline.

562

:

And, I guess, it would seem a little

better if it was more focused as to,

563

:

at least what the stranger is up to.

564

:

Yes.

565

:

And like, what's his point?

566

:

Mm hmm.

567

:

Um Yeah, I Yeah.

568

:

I feel like So, I what I feel like

is the storyline with the stranger

569

:

should basically be its own miniseries.

570

:

It should not be a part

of the main series.

571

:

That's what I feel like.

572

:

Like, like the other story..

573

:

So, we'll get to this because I think

after this one is the story of Numenor.

574

:

Like, the story of Numenor is also very

disconnected from the story if you don't

575

:

know what's in the books, because if

you know what's in the books, Sauron

576

:

is eventually going to go to Numenor,

um, and so they're setting, they're

577

:

setting that up and everything else.

578

:

So like, obviously if like I knew

nothing about Lord of the Rings, I

579

:

would obviously say like, okay, the

Hobbit stranger story line is weird.

580

:

And also the Numenor storyline

outside of like, they saw something

581

:

in the Palantir, so they went to

Middle-earth, and they went to fight.

582

:

Like, outside of that is like,

why, why are they including that?

583

:

But as a, obviously because we know in the

books, like, Sauron has to go to Numenor.

584

:

So like, seeing what's going on in

Numenor before Sauron shows up, and how,

585

:

Like, the, the temple scene was wild,

586

:

how, how much they showed the brokenness

of the society, and um, I forget what,

587

:

um, they called Ar-Pharazon's son's

name, but like, the fact that he was just

588

:

like, uh, he was the, the most backstabby

backstabby man since Grimma Wormtongue.

589

:

So like, like, like if Grimma was a, if

Grimma is like, you know, is a descendant

590

:

of that guy, I would not be surprised.

591

:

Um, so, yeah.

592

:

Um, like he is the most

underhanded person I've ever seen.

593

:

He's kind of a snake.

594

:

He is a snake.

595

:

Yeah.

596

:

Um.

597

:

But.

598

:

So.

599

:

Definitely.

600

:

Yeah, so.

601

:

We can just move on then.

602

:

to the um.

603

:

It's the judgment scene.

604

:

Moving on.

605

:

Oh yeah, yeah.

606

:

So in Numenor we've got.

607

:

We've got.

608

:

Starting out there, we have Elendil

who approaches Ar-Pharazon, right?

609

:

They're putting him on trial.

610

:

And tell him to at least

deny or recant his crimes.

611

:

His crimes, and then swear fealty.

612

:

Yeah, swear fealty to Ar-Pharazon.

613

:

Yeah, Ar-Pharazon.

614

:

Yeah.

615

:

So he wouldn't swear fealty, so

they said, alright, well then

616

:

we'll, we'll let the Valar decide.

617

:

What a great idea, guys.

618

:

Let's just throw him in the, throw

him in the sea, let the Valar decide.

619

:

Yeah.

620

:

And then, yeah, so they're about

to throw him into the Miriel.

621

:

Well, before that, so before that, they

have the scene in the, the scene in the

622

:

jail cell, before it, which the daughter

comes in, and is trying to convince him

623

:

to say, hey, I don't want to lose you too.

624

:

I've lost my brother.

625

:

Obviously, neither of them

know the brother's still alive,

626

:

um, Isildur, um, and then Miriel

also comes in and is like, hey, we

627

:

need Numenor not to be fractured.

628

:

And Elendil, I think, speaks

something which spurs her to action.

629

:

He says, I think it was, faith

is not faith unless it is lived.

630

:

Um, Which I could definitely, I don't

know if it's actually from the books, but

631

:

I could definitely see something, like,

Tolkien would write something like that.

632

:

Um, so, I love that line from Elendil.

633

:

Um, I also, I also just love how

much Elendil's getting more involved,

634

:

and like, has, like, much more of a

central character, along with Miriel.

635

:

Um, and so when, when they have that

scene, they, they both can't convince

636

:

him, and then Elendil's ready to go

into the ocean, and then Miriel shows

637

:

up and says, Hey, he did it in my name.

638

:

Throw me in the ocean.

639

:

Because I'm the ultimate responsibility.

640

:

And, um, Ar-Pharazon, I mean, they're

like, um, I mean, they probably want

641

:

to get, at this point, they probably

want to get rid of both Miriel and

642

:

Elendil, so they're like, Either

one is good, so sure, we'll throw,

643

:

either one we can throw in the ocean,

we'll just throw it in the ocean.

644

:

And, uh, Obviously, they, they don't,

obviously, I think they're assuming

645

:

that there's so much in the right

that the, the beast, uh, I forget

646

:

what the, what's the beast called?

647

:

I swear they call it a worm.

648

:

A worm, yeah.

649

:

The worm's just going to eat her, um, and

we'll just, we'll be rid of one threat

650

:

and then we can focus on the other one.

651

:

Mm hmm.

652

:

Um, and instead, um, the worm,

uh, I guess, and the Valar look

653

:

at her and they're like, nope,

you're doing the right thing.

654

:

Go back.

655

:

Um, and so, um, I mean, obviously

they've made, uh, they made a

656

:

few mistakes and everything else.

657

:

Um, because Elendil, I think, caused,

started the fight in the temple and

658

:

everything else and doing all that.

659

:

I don't think that was, that was

smart, which got him into the business.

660

:

And then got, Valandil died, Valandil

got killed because of the fight.

661

:

Um, And so, but they're, they're like,

the Valar are confirming, like, hey, yes,

662

:

you've made mistakes, you've done things,

but your heart is in the right place.

663

:

Um, and so we're gonna, also the idea

of, like, you know, uh, redemption and

664

:

being able to, like, try things again,

do things better, um, is definitely a

665

:

story in Tolkien like um, when Frodo

throws away Sam, going to Dol Goldur,

666

:

gets stabbed by Shelob and everything

else, um, you know, ya know Tolkien

667

:

doesn't immediately throw Frodo away

and just have Sam go throw it in.

668

:

He gives Frodo a second

chance to do it right.

669

:

Um, so.

670

:

Right, yeah.

671

:

So it's kind of the same way of

this one, of like, hey, you know,

672

:

we're doing that kind of idea of

like, you do get a second chance.

673

:

Um.

674

:

Right a second chance even

though like she was in the right.

675

:

Yeah, but, and then you know, also

it's uh, it's another Christ like

676

:

yeah um part of it too with her just

putting her life at stake instead

677

:

Yes for Elendil in a sense for

all of the Faithful in a big way.

678

:

Cause she is the leader of the Faithful,

so what happens to her, um, I feel like

679

:

it says a big part about, um, where like

the Faithful stand and the Kingsmen stand.

680

:

Yeah.

681

:

Um, yeah.

682

:

And it would be interesting too to see

how, to see how like the split happens

683

:

between the Faithful and the Kingsmen.

684

:

And how, and how like the Faith..

685

:

The Faithful, you know, get to

Middle-earth and actually start

686

:

settling it and how that goes.

687

:

Yeah.

688

:

Um, which would be neat.

689

:

Like I think Like because that to me

is like it's like really interesting.

690

:

I think that would be really cool to

see and like and I think that there

691

:

are parts that I know like Amazon

could do a lot better, you know, um,

692

:

like I think that yeah, this is I see

stuff where it's like, yeah, I can see

693

:

how this could like really go places.

694

:

Um, but it seems like they rushed

certain parts and then it's like, well,

695

:

these other parts you can like drag

out longer, but it's like, you know,

696

:

but you're rushing this storyline.

697

:

So like, by the time you get here,

it's going to be short and, um, how

698

:

much you're going to be able to tell.

699

:

But yeah, I, I think also that when

they see, um, when the, Ar-Pharazon

700

:

and his, uh, cohort of, of, um, all

of them, when they see that Miriel has

701

:

been, you know, it's, it's a very, you

know, it's a, basically, it's a divine

702

:

approval that Miriel is in the right.

703

:

And, you know, you, you kind of

saw it on his face in the episode.

704

:

He was like, Um, so this is probably,

if they're doing it right, because

705

:

this is the, um, Ar-Pharazon

forces her to marry him, I believe.

706

:

Is that correct?

707

:

Yeah, you're right.

708

:

So this is probably when, like, this,

this, I, I hope this comes up, is like,

709

:

they're like, we can't get rid of Miriel.

710

:

She's been, she's like, if we do that,

like, you know, people have seen,

711

:

she's been approved by the Valar.

712

:

We need to, like, do something else

to get her, like, you know, I guess,

713

:

uh on our side, but not working in a

place of power that we can't control.

714

:

So they're probably going to come

up with the idea of the marriage.

715

:

Right.

716

:

Yeah.

717

:

That would be a different

twist on things too.

718

:

Yeah.

719

:

Um, yeah, I think going

back to the Harfoots, Yeah.

720

:

um, it would be interesting to see

how that plays out with Gandalf,

721

:

or maybe Gandalf, but it's strange

I'm personally, I'm personally

722

:

hoping it's a, a blue wizard.

723

:

Um, I, I don't think it would be a, I

don't think it would be a good story

724

:

if this was a, if this was actually

Gandalf, because the blue wizards

725

:

do are the ones who are in the East

and they actually are the ones, they

726

:

do actually fight against Sauron.

727

:

And then they just never get

mentioned again because they're in

728

:

the East and the East doesn't matter.

729

:

Yeah.

730

:

Well, Mark.

731

:

Mark's like kind of theory was, well,

maybe they'll use the name Gandalf

732

:

anyways, because everybody knows it.

733

:

Yeah, it's it's just the it's just the

problem of, you know, Tolkien wrote

734

:

such a big universe and it's like um the

hard part is like he wrote the stories

735

:

and everything else and the problem is

like we're coming after he's gone um and

736

:

everything else and like we're like, we

want more of the stories, but obviously he

737

:

could only write so much in his lifetime.

738

:

Um, and so we kind of have to, you know,

guess what he would probably think.

739

:

Um, and so, um, yeah, my, my personal

thing is I would, I would like Amazon

740

:

to use him as a blue wizard, um, and

call them not Gandalf, um, because,

741

:

um, I, I would be nice to have, because

uh it would be nice to have, uh,

742

:

Radagast, Saruman, and Gandalf all come

in through the, through the, the gate.

743

:

Because Cirdan has, has the ring now.

744

:

And then that's when Cirdan recognizes

Gandalf as the wisest of them.

745

:

And that's when he slips him the ring.

746

:

Um, so that would be good.

747

:

Um, because it wouldn't make

sense because, you know, he's,

748

:

they're in, they're already here.

749

:

Um.

750

:

And the Blue Wizards do

come first, I believe.

751

:

Is that, that's correct, I believe.

752

:

Um, I think they do come first, yeah.

753

:

Um, but, the, uh, as far as

I know, the timeline is like,

754

:

so like, scrunched, Mm hmm.

755

:

that the Blue Wizards, like, were, like,

got to Middle-earth before Gandalf,

756

:

and maybe even before Saruman did?

757

:

Mm hmm.

758

:

Mm hmm.

759

:

So, especially with Gandalf, like,

Gandalf gets to Middle-earth,

760

:

I don't know, like, towards the

end of the Second Age, I think?

761

:

Maybe, maybe it was just the beginning

of the First Age, or Third Age, rather?

762

:

And, yeah, so he, anyways, he and the

Blue Wizards are, like, very much, like,

763

:

separated, as far as I can recollect.

764

:

So I mean, it would, I mean, it would

work for Mm-Hmm cirdan to give Gandalf

765

:

his ring and this because Mm-Hmm.

766

:

, they, because they have

Cirdan there and, Mm-Hmm.

767

:

Yeah, they make Gandalf

in the picture as well.

768

:

Yeah.

769

:

Um, so yeah.

770

:

Yeah.

771

:

That, that would be cool.

772

:

Yeah.

773

:

I think we covered all the storylines.

774

:

I don't think there's anything else.

775

:

Um, yeah.

776

:

Yeah, we just have the.

777

:

The last scene is, uh, so we, we kind

of already to, uh, touched on it, the,

778

:

uh, the illusion scene where, um, the

siege starts, Adar starts the siege.

779

:

Um, 'cause he gets the information

on Galadriel that he confirms

780

:

that Sauron is in Eregion.

781

:

Yeah.

782

:

Um, and that's really all he needed.

783

:

Um, so he commands the siege to start, um,

which, uh, you know, it's very cool they,

784

:

they do or machine war machinery well, um,

you know, it's, it's pretty easy to do.

785

:

Yeah.

786

:

Um.

787

:

So, uh, and then, and then, you know,

Saruman does the illusion on Celebrimbor

788

:

to get him to go back to work.

789

:

Um, and I am very curious if he's going

to, how much of Sauron, uh, how much

790

:

of Sauron he's going to, like, how much

Sauron directs the defense and is he going

791

:

to, like, um, cause the lines to fail in

some way when he knows the rings are done.

792

:

Or like, basically, he's like, he's

going to be a competent general until the

793

:

rings are done and then let Eregion fall.

794

:

Yeah.

795

:

So.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

I mean, it'll all be interesting,

because I remember in the

798

:

trailer how he talked about

799

:

Celebrimbor and Sauron, and Sauron's

telling him, hey, I want the nine.

800

:

So basically.

801

:

Celebrimbor is like, hiding them.

802

:

I guess what, because I guess

what actually happened is that

803

:

Celebrimbor makes all the rings,

804

:

tries to hide them, Sauron tortures

him for them, Sauron gets the rings

805

:

and then, um, Uh, was it that?

806

:

Yeah, anyways, he's some I I I, you know,

he gets the one ring, maybe he comes back

807

:

after he gets the one ring, after he makes

that and then comes back to Celebrimbor.

808

:

Yeah, which is, I'm very curious

because he has to make it in

809

:

Mordor, because that's, you know,

it's, he makes it in Mount Doom.

810

:

So, he has to, Adar has to be

taken care of somehow, because

811

:

Adar's not letting Sauron in.

812

:

Um, so, I'm wondering if Adar gets

taken care of during the siege, um.

813

:

It could be.

814

:

Well, also think about how Galadriel, when

talking to Adar, was saying that Sauron

815

:

is just using this whole thing to his own

advantage, he's wanting you to attack.

816

:

Yeah, which he did.

817

:

He did.

818

:

He did set that up in the first episode.

819

:

Like, he dropped very, a lot of hints to

Adar when he was being captured in Mordor.

820

:

Right.

821

:

Um To make Adar go attack Eregion.

822

:

So.

823

:

Yeah.

824

:

Um, anyway, so like.

825

:

I guess Sauron is working

things to his advantage.

826

:

The only thing I guess that in a sense I

would like to see a little more of is like

827

:

Sauron actually have an army of his own.

828

:

Yes, definitely.

829

:

He's at the beginning of the of

this of this of this season, Mm hmm.

830

:

they showed, which is like one of

my, if, like, not my worst, Mm-Hmm.

831

:

um, episode.

832

:

Mm-Hmm.

833

:

or at least my worst scene was when

Sauron is trying to convince the orcs

834

:

to be on his side instead of just, you

know, being like, I am all powerful.

835

:

I am, I am the power most

powerful Lord left after Morgoth.

836

:

You should just follow me.

837

:

Yeah.

838

:

Right.

839

:

Yeah.

840

:

Essentially.

841

:

But he's, he's basically just putting

on this sense of just being an elf,

842

:

a fair elf, that, you know, as we

were saying, doesn't really have much

843

:

power, doesn't show any much magic.

844

:

Um, so with that, like, he's not

commanding an army to, like, follow him.

845

:

So how is it, how is it gonna change?

846

:

The other thing is, too, and this

is kind of part of it as well, and

847

:

that's why, like, Adar is connected

to the orcs is because he's considered

848

:

their father because it's like

Mm-Hmm, he was like the first elf

849

:

taken, you know, a torture, whatever.

850

:

Mm-Hmm.

851

:

you know, into being an orc.

852

:

Mm-Hmm.

853

:

And now like all the orcs, basically

like spawn from him in a sense.

854

:

Mm-Hmm.

855

:

because they, I think it is said

that the orcs do like reproduce

856

:

essentially after the, like the men do.

857

:

Yeah.

858

:

And like the children of Illuvatar.

859

:

Mm-Hmm.

860

:

. So, but, with this, it's almost

like, it's almost like, I feel like

861

:

I'm supposed to like the orcs more,

862

:

and like, their portrayal So that,

it's not like this sense of like,

863

:

okay, are they going to like, band

up with like, Sauron in the end?

864

:

Like, are they bad?

865

:

Entirely?

866

:

So, it's, it's kind of like,

anyways, this, looking at it

867

:

like this is like, alright.

868

:

I wish the orcs weren't given such a,

such a kind of like, um, I don't know.

869

:

Sympathetic look.

870

:

Yeah, sympathetic.

871

:

Yeah.

872

:

And, it was a little, a little weird for

me to see like the, the baby in the hands

873

:

of the, in the arms of the mother and

like, how are you supposed to play like

874

:

an orc who's like, comforting its child.

875

:

I don't know.

876

:

It's just.

877

:

It just seemed a little odd.

878

:

Yeah, yeah.

879

:

Out of place.

880

:

Yeah, that's, that's, that's one of

the things, like, the differences

881

:

between, like, Tolkien is definitely,

um, definitely, Tolkien definitely

882

:

has pity on the orcs because

he knows where they come from.

883

:

Like, they're coming from elves, but

like every, every time he portrays

884

:

an orc in the books and every time,

they're always, they're always evil.

885

:

They, um, you know, by the time they've

become an orc, they, they are beyond, you

886

:

know, they are beyond redemption because,

you know, they can't, they can't do that.

887

:

Um, Whereas in Amazon, Amazon seems to

have a much more generous view of the evil

888

:

side of being like, hey, there might be

a little bit of good in them somewhere.

889

:

Um, which is like one of the differences.

890

:

It's a worldview difference.

891

:

Yeah, it's a worldview difference.

892

:

Yeah.

893

:

Um, and the, um, I do appreciate um,

I'm not sure because this is, uh, Uh,

894

:

I forget how the rings are made in

the books because I haven't read the

895

:

Silmarillion in forever, but um, I like

the idea for the differences of like the

896

:

idea of like how how they structured it

because they've reorganized it they've

897

:

done the three the seven and the nine

and from what I understand was like the

898

:

three was made with the pure intentions

of Celebrimbor in his heart, he had

899

:

you know, nothing evil and everything

else like even though Sauron like,

900

:

helped him and like, kind of everything

else, because Celebrimbor himself was

901

:

pure, the rings themselves are pure.

902

:

But then when on the seven, because

he's lied to Gil-Galad, um, even though

903

:

it was very heavily pushed by Sauron

in his Sauron way, um, of like, uh,

904

:

I remember when he writes the letter

and Sauron, uh, you know, has that

905

:

fake, like, Oh no, what are you doing?

906

:

And like, I know, I know in

his mind, he's like, yes, yes.

907

:

Um, and um, like, uh, that fact of like,

the, the Amazon thing of like, hey, as

908

:

Celebrimbor does more and more things to

like, cover his tracks and like, follow

909

:

the, you know, do more things and like,

just push on into, into other stuff.

910

:

The works he creates, the rings he

creates, become more and more corruptible.

911

:

Um, so like, for their universe, for

their timeline where like, the three

912

:

rings are made first, I like how

they're doing it, um, in this way.

913

:

But once again, it's also obviously,

um, it's uh, you know, they changed

914

:

it for their show which, you know,

it's not right for the lore because

915

:

the seven and nine were made first

and then the three were made.

916

:

Um, Yeah, I think, I think that is

interesting, like, what you're talking

917

:

about, because, like, it seems that

it's, it's, it's, um, so Sauron's

918

:

affecting Celebrimbor, which is then

affecting the way he makes the rings.

919

:

Yes.

920

:

Whereas, I think, um, from what I'm

thinking of in, like, for the lore, it

921

:

was more that It's the fact that Sauron's

there and he's helping to make the rings.

922

:

Not necessarily corrupt,

corrupting Celebrimbor.

923

:

Um, so that like Celebrimbor at the end

of the day is still able to make the three

924

:

when Sauron's not there and it'd be okay.

925

:

Um, and this is kind of like the,

the gist that, um, I was getting at.

926

:

Yeah.

927

:

Yeah.

928

:

But, but definitely the, um, the,

um, I, I don't know if this is in

929

:

Tolkien, but it is in other works of

like the idea of like the intentions

930

:

of your heart go into your work.

931

:

Um, like it's, it's very

famous in other, other things.

932

:

I, I'm not sure if this

is really a Tolkien thing.

933

:

Um, but it's like, you know, it, it is

a very, it is a very Christian thing

934

:

of like, um, um, where the outpouring,

the stuff that comes out of your

935

:

heart, like, if your heart is dark,

dark things will come out of your

936

:

actions and words and everything else.

937

:

So like, that's kind of how Amazon

is running with it, it seems like.

938

:

It's like, because there's darkness

in Celebrimbor's heart, the

939

:

things he makes are corrupted.

940

:

Yeah.

941

:

Um, so.

942

:

No, that is, that is a good

way, a good way of looking at

943

:

that and thinking about it.

944

:

Um.

945

:

Now I think that as far as just like

favorite parts, um, like that for

946

:

this episode, I think that Annatar

and Celebrimbor and that their whole

947

:

interaction and the smiths and all

like just my favorite of the episode.

948

:

Um, and unfortunately my least

favorite was probably starting with

949

:

Arondir and then just like ending

at that kind of, um, I don't really

950

:

know where they were going with it.

951

:

Yeah, that was just kind of like a

thing of like, um, like Arondir finds

952

:

the orcs and they're going to Eregion.

953

:

Which you already knew they were going to

Eregion because Adar was going to Eregion.

954

:

Like, you've seen that before.

955

:

um I don't know that, I don't

know that Arondir would have

956

:

ever, like, come across that.

957

:

Yeah, probably not.

958

:

Um.

959

:

And like, it seems weird that of

all the elves, like, he sees them.

960

:

Right.

961

:

Well, yeah, cause the only thing

with that that might have happened

962

:

is that they're trying to No.

963

:

I'm just, I'm just thinking, well,

maybe it's because Amazon's gonna

964

:

tie in, like, some reinforcements

that are gonna come from what's that?

965

:

Pelargir?

966

:

Yeah.

967

:

And somehow that would be there,

but then also, like, Elrond is gonna

968

:

bring the cavalry, which I'm just

thinking of because of the, because

969

:

of the trailer he, you know, he rides.

970

:

Yeah, I think eventually, I, I

think it was, it was episode 5

971

:

where he's talking to Gil-Galad and

Gil-Galad's official is like, no.

972

:

Like, I think eventually Elrond is

going to, either, either he's going to

973

:

take, um, he's going to pull an Eomir

and just be like, I'm gonna take the

974

:

cavalry and just go off on my own, or

he's actually gonna convince Gil-Galad

975

:

to be like, no, we need to send the army.

976

:

Um So, yeah, um, which that, that would

be an interesting if, if they have Elrond

977

:

pull an Eomir from, from Rohan and, you

know, uh, The Two Towers where Eomir is

978

:

like, Theoden's not protecting my realm.

979

:

All right, I'm just going to do it.

980

:

So, yeah, which wouldn't, wouldn't

be a surprise with all the

981

:

references they've made so far.

982

:

Yeah.

983

:

And the other stuff, but yeah.

984

:

And that also would, that also would

connect to how Elrond eventually makes

985

:

Rivendell, um, because that would make

him like, okay, he's kind of separated

986

:

from Gil-Galad, maybe he finds some

refugees from Eregion, and then he goes to

987

:

Rivendell, the place he finds Rivendell,

and he's like, okay, hey, we need to set

988

:

up basically a refugee camp and rebuild a

town because, you know, this is this, so.

989

:

Right.

990

:

At the end of all things.

991

:

Well, thanks, uh, Nathan for joining

me and reviewing this episode, and

992

:

thanks everybody for tuning in.

993

:

And, uh, Mark, if you are listening

to this, if I made any lore

994

:

mistakes, you can correct me later.

995

:

Yes, yes, will do, will do.

996

:

Yeah, so catch us guys for our next

episode on the review of episode 7.

997

:

Philip Outro: Thanks for

visiting the White City.

998

:

Before you leave, please subscribe

to our podcast and check us out

999

:

at thewhitecitypodcast.com or

on YouTube or Facebook under

:

00:58:17,291 --> 00:58:19,061

the tag @thewhitecitypodcast

:

00:58:28,751 --> 00:58:32,873

Philip: I just wanted to correct

something that I said in this episode.

:

00:58:33,653 --> 00:58:40,643

about, the time when Sauron made the

rings and, you know, the time, whenever

:

00:58:40,643 --> 00:58:44,923

he came to Eregion to seige it.

:

00:58:45,613 --> 00:58:51,433

So he actually, he actually made the

rings, with the elves so, which would

:

00:58:51,433 --> 00:58:56,173

have been the seven dwarven rings and

the nine rings for men, with the elves

:

00:58:56,203 --> 00:58:59,573

before they sacked Erejion, Eregion.

:

00:58:59,593 --> 00:59:05,323

So even though in The Rings of Power, the

nine rings are basically being made at

:

00:59:05,323 --> 00:59:10,963

the same time as the siege at Eregion,

in the lore actually Sauron helped them

:

00:59:10,963 --> 00:59:16,813

make those rings before, and then went

back to Mordor, created the one ring.

:

00:59:17,053 --> 00:59:20,143

At the same time the

Elves created the three.

:

00:59:20,143 --> 00:59:25,803

So, with that, there's just, just

got that wrong, here in the episode.

:

00:59:25,823 --> 00:59:27,863

So wanted to clarify that.

All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for The White City
The White City
A commentary on The Rings of Power and anything Middle Earth or Tolkien related.

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for Philip Dudt

Philip Dudt

Podcast Host