Episode 32
"Courage Merry, Courage For Our Friends" - Bravery Against Impossible Odds
In this episode, Philip, Matt, and Mark talk about courage, most prevalently concerning Rohan. The horse riders are an unrelenting force fueled by ferocity and righteousness. Sam's faithful courage is also touched upon. 'What can men do against such reckless hate?'
00:00 Introduction
01:14 Rohan Doesn't Look Back
07:30 Defining Courage and Tolkien's Experience
09:38 Deaaattthhh!!!
12:28 An Unrelenting Force
17:16 Courage Beyond the Rohirrim
23:24 Faith, Hope, and Love
24:19 Conclusion
Transcript
Welcome, my lords, to the White City, where you will learn
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:more about Middle Earth and discover
differences and similarities between
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:The Rings of Power show and Tolkien's
books, and whether Amazon's show,
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:episode by episode, is worth watching.
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:I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll
be joined by Matt Vandevort and
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:Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.
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:Welcome to the White City Podcast.
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:Today here I have my co-hosts with
me, Matt and Mark, and we're going to
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:be talking about courage and how that
relates mostly to Rohan, especially
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:if you've seen in the movies.
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:Rohan in like all the battles
is very, very courageous.
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:Always fighting to the end, right?
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:Making a stand.
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:So, Matt, what are your thoughts on this?
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:Is, if you can remember, is it the
way that like, Rohan's courage is
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:depicted in the movie, similar to
the way it's depicted in the books?
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:Or..
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:Matt: Yeah, I think that, um, Rohan
and courage in general is really
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:interesting in the Lord of the Rings.
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:So, I think that, uh, the courage of
Rohan is kind of, I think it almost,
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:it's almost played out more that
like, Their cause is so righteous
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:that they kind of can't be anything
but courageous when dealing with it.
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:So, in the books, one of my favorite
descriptions in the books is the
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:description of Theoden, at the Battle of
Pelennor Fields, because he is described
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:as looking like a god coming down, just
because he is so, it's kind of a fell
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:mood, where he, he realizes that this
is probably going to be his last, fight,
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:whether he wins or not, and he just
comes out with such ferocity and, glory
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:that he's described as, I think it's,
I think he's described as, like, Orome
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:or maybe even Tulkas, where he's just
coming onto the battlefield and he's just
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:carried by such a righteous cause that
it's almost that is what is fueling him.
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:And I think that it plays into the
themes of courage where, courage coming
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:from a specific place, I think, is a
big thing in The Lord of the Rings.
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:Where a lot of times it is that, I don't
know if I'm going to live or die, but
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:I know that what I'm doing is right
and is, is the correct thing to do.
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:Which is why, the one thing that's in,
one of the few things that's in the
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:movies that's not in the books that I
think Tolkien would have really liked
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:is, Aragorn's speech at the Black Gate.
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:Because it's such a moment of like,
Aragorn is just inspiring his troops so
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:much because he kind of knows that they're
screwed unless Frodo is successful.
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:But, he is like, going down to
his death with a smile and with a
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:brave face because he knows that
whether or not he is successful,
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:he is so assuredly in the right.
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:It's kind of the idea that, like,
there's no shame in a righteous death.
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:There's no shame in a glorious death.
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:That, I think, is, because it's
really interesting, because you read
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:a lot of other Tolkien stuff where
he doesn't really describe, like, he
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:doesn't describe battles very often.
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:I mean, he does, but they're not
like super, super in depth because,
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:like, Tolkien was not a fan of
war for war's sake, obviously.
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:He lived through World War I and
experienced that horror, but he
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:understood in a way that I think a
lot of people, in kind of a reaction
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:against the tide coming out of that,
where people were like, Oh, we don't
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:ever want to go to war again, and like,
All war is bad, and things like that.
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:Where it's like, Tolkien understood
that sometimes you must do these
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:things, sometimes it's necessary.
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:Yes, it is sort of horrible to live
through and terrible to deal with, but
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:there are causes worth fighting for.
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:And I think that Rohan, I think
that Rohan specifically is an
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:example of that because, like,
Gondor is getting attacked directly.
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:Yes, Rohan gets attacked directly by
Saruman, but especially when it comes
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:to the Battle of Pelennor Fields.
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:Gondor, or Rohan has promised
in the past to aid Gondor.
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:There's technically nothing forcing
Rohan to go to Gondor's aid.
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:They could have just said, we have
to shore up our own defenses and,
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:you know, see to our own borders.
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:But, and they almost do, I think.
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:But once they have decided,
no, we're going to help.
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:We are going to Gondor.
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:We're, we're going to, we are
answering Gondor's call for aid.
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:Once you hit that point, it's like,
they know what they're doing, and
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:they know what they're doing is
right, and they, they don't waver.
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:And you have characters like Eowyn
and Merry, who are told, Don't come
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:to war with us, and they go anyways.
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:And I think that is, yeah, I think
that that's a very, good view of
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:conflict in that kind of the don't
start anything, but if something is
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:started finish it kind of mentality.
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:But then again, you have like every
everything about Tolkien's like
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:he kind of writes a war in in the
most ideal way I guess because you
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:have one side is clearly good, and
that's the side that is reacting,
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:they are not, they are not starting it.
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:But they are finishing it.
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:You have, even on the, the evil side,
you have characters, you have people,
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:you have the orcs, who are very
just like, they're the evil people.
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:But you have, like, the Southrons and
the, Easterlings that come in, that at
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:the end, Aragorn, resettles some of them
and, doesn't exactly hold it against them.
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:And I think that's another thing where
Tolkien is showing that, Yes you should
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:only fight for a righteous cause, but
just because you were fighting for
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:a righteous cause does not mean that
everyone on the other side is, like,
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:agrees with or is, is evil themselves.
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:They might just be caught up in
something that's beyond their control.
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:And so you have this sort of ferocity
on the battlefield and magnanimity,
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:magnanimity off the battlefield
that is, just comes through very
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:clearly through Tolkien's writings.
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:Yeah, I, I just think he, he does a very
good job of dealing with sort of the
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:virtues of war, like courage specifically,
but the virtues of war in general.
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:Mark: Yeah, I think it's
also very interesting.
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:So I would define courage as, like
doing what's right, no matter the cost.
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:I think that's like really important.
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:And there's like a lot of questions,
like, why do we do the right thing?
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:What's the, is it because it
has these good consequences?
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:And there's like this really
argument for like, for Rohan, right?
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:That if they go to the Battle of Pelennor
Fields, they're going to die too, right?
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:And they may as well, like, live as long
as possible or try to escape or something.
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:But there's this idea, like, hey, even if
it changes nothing, we're going to follow
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:our word, and because that's like what it
means to do, like, that's what courage is.
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:It's doing what's right, even
if it costs you your life.
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:I think that's like something
that really shines through a
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:lot in Tolkien's worldview.
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:I think what Matt touched a lot on,
I recently read, a book that Phil had
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:recommended to me, but A Hobbit, a Witch,
a Wardrobe, and a Great War, or something
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:like that, but it went through the C.
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:S.
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:Lewis and Tolkien and the effects of World
War II, uh, World War I, sorry, on them,
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:and their worldviews, and I think it's
really interesting, Matt, you caught a
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:lot of this, but like, the way Tolkien
portrays war in Lord of the Rings is very
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:interesting in that, like, he, one, he
portrays it as, like, very terrible, like,
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:it leaves lifeline scars on everyone.
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:Frodo is, like, always, like, bears
the scars from Weathertop, right?
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:And these wars, a lot of characters die
in them and stuff, and it's very gruesome.
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:But also, like, Tolkien also says there's,
like, glory on the battlefield, right?
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:That there is, like,
courage and honor as well.
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:And so it's, like, he sort of straddles
two sides where there was this like
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:old world where it was like, Oh,
war is this glorious thing, right?
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:It's where all the Romans go.
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:And, and it's like this.
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:And, and he's like, no, it's this terrible
thing where like everyday people are
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:dying and like thrown into the trenches.
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:Right?
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:But at the same time there was this
reaction after the world wars as
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:well that like war is always wrong,
there's no honor glory or like
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:anything like that on the battlefield.
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:That war is just like this
abyss where no one loses.
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:And he's like, no, there's
like light in that abyss.
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:Right.
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:And there's like courage of
everyday people there too.
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:I think that's so super cool in that he
doesn't play one extreme or the other.
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:He sort of falls in between.
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:I think maybe as someone who has no
experience with like armed conflict,
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:maybe that's a good place to be.
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:But yeah.
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:Philip: Yeah, what's interesting is that
I've, looking a little bit into like the
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:Pelennor Fields battle from what Matt
was talking about, like beginning with
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:like Theoden and like them all yelling
death is like, it's also in the book.
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:But thought that was pretty cool.
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:Also with like Eowyn like
fighting at the end there with
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:Merry is like, all the same, but.
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:Matt: Yeah.
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:I wanted to I kind of want
to touch on the death thing.
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:I think that it's it's fascinating
because, you have this, like, very much
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:good side using these kind of sinister,
like, battle cries and things where,
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:like, I've always loved, especially
in the movie, I love that scene where
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:they're just like charging towards the
orc, screaming death because it's this,
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:it really gives off the sense of they
know they're gonna die, but what's scarier
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:than an enemy that has nothing to lose?
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:Again, it's kind of this feeling
of, ferocity on the battlefield and
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:magnanity off the battlefield, ferocity
on the battlefield and magnanity off
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:the battlefield because it's like it's
that that idea of like war is terrible
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:but when it's required like I will be
terrible and I will fight my hardest
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:and go down swinging and have nothing
to lose, and I, I just, I don't know,
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:it's, I really love that scene because
you really get this sense of, awe, but
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:also just like, how terrifying it would
be to face the charge of the Rohirrim.
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:Like, even as the orcs that are
like, bred for war, and, their
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:sole purpose is to fight and kill.
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:And I love, again, I love that scene in
the movie so much because the shots of
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:the orcs faces as they're just like, We're
not prepared to fight an enemy that is,
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:like, laughing as they're charging us,
like, that is, that's another scene in
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:the movie that I think they just knocked
out of the park because it is, it's just
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:so terrifying because you have an entire
group of people that essentially have
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:come to die and they are ready for it.
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:It's so good.
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:It's so good.
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:Philip: One of the best scenes, by far.
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:Matt: I want to go watch that
scene after we finish recording.
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:Mark: I think also like, it's interesting
that I think the way that scene sort of
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:plays in the story is that like the orcs
are sort of seen as like sort of maybe
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:the determined ones where like they're the
ones who will throw themselves headlong
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:into battle and stuff, and, like, get
themselves, like, severely injured.
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:You think of, like, Aragorn fighting
that one guy, right, who, like,
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:pulls himself on the sword or
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:Philip: whatever.
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:Gothmog.
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:Mark: yeah.
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:It's interesting, like, right, this is
the first time you see, like, the good
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:characters and their determination and
their determination to stick it out to the
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:end that they're here as well, I think,
is also maybe one of, well, that also is
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:my favorite scene of the movies as well.
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:Matt: It's so good!
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:Like at Helm's Deep, it's
interesting, because they're
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:fighting out of desperation.
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:They're fighting for their lives.
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:They're fighting to live
another day, essentially.
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:Whereas at Pelennor Fields, they
don't have that restriction.
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:They don't care if they die or not.
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:And I think that's why, the orcs are
scary at, uh, Helms Deep, because the
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:orcs are the ones that, you know, they
have endless reserves and they're,
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:coming to fight and everything.
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:But, it's only, it's at the Battle of
Pelennor Fields where the tables are
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:turned and it's just like, the Rohirrim
are like, they're in the, I mean, I
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:think the best word is, it's a fell mood,
where they're like, this sort of grim,
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:dark feeling that wraps around to being
like Not not joy, but like you get to
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:that point where you realize Oh, this
is it and you just it like it gets so
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:dark that you laugh kind of uh and it
I don't know it just comes across as...
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:It's just a really powerful scene.
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:I also do have to say that, like,
personally, I really love the,
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:people coming in to relieve a
hopeless situation kind of trope.
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:So, that's kind of why, that's another
reason why I really like, Helm's Deep
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:and Pelennor Fields, because there's just
something about that, oh, everything's
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:lost, and then just cresting a hilltop,
suddenly you see spears and banners and, I
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:mean literally with Rohan, The cavalry has
arrived, and it, it's, man, it's so good.
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:And then it helps when you have
a bunch of zombie ghosts that
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:come in from the other side too.
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:Mark: Yeah, I, think it's, it's
interesting that that seems so powerful
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:and yet it doesn't save, like it's
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:not like the end of the
story, right, as well.,
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:Matt: I think that's another reason
why it's so good in the movie, too,
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:is like, yes, it's this charge!
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:And then like two minutes later,
they're kinda getting wrecked by the
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:Oliphants and the Southrons that come in.
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:Because, it's that, that hope
in the face of hopelessness.
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:Like, that's another thing.
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:I've been thinking a lot about
recently, like, the idea of, the
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:hopeless bringing hope to others.
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:And I think that's another reason why it's
so good, is that, like, the Rohirrim have,
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:again, they're expecting to die, they're
expecting to lose, but they come anyways.
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:And for at least that brief moment, the
people in Tirith see their allies show
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:up, and come, from their perspective,
they are coming to rescue them, even
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:though we know it's not, like the battle
is only won by the barest of margins.
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:And so, it's just, it's really
powerful because it's like you
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:start asking questions of like,
what's the difference between being
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:hopeful and faking being hopeful?
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:You get into the real nitty gritty of,
like, characters that have no hope for
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:themselves but will not break face in
front of others who believe in them.
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:It's just really a fascinating, I
don't want to call it a trope, but
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:it's a fascinating theme to deal with.
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:Philip: Yeah, Rohan was always
well, I mean, not just for like the
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:fact that they are courageous, but
like, they're always my favorite
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:faction in the Lord of the Rings RTS
game, The Battle for Middle-earth.
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:I always loved like the charging
with the horses, and you could
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:like plow through enemies.
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:Matt: Yeah.
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:I mean, you also have to think about
the fact that, like, that has gotta
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:be, like, obviously, even in, like,
human history, like, Cavalry is so
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:terrifying if you're just an infantry.
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:I love the, the kind of the image of like
the thundering hoves and like the sun
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:glinting off armor and stuff, because
and again, I think this is why I love
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:the description of Theoden so much,
because it is like an almost supernatural,
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:phenomenon of just this horde of, people
just charging towards you to break
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:whatever line is being made against them.
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:yeah, it's just, I don't know,
it's just really, it's really good.
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:It makes me think of the, Sabaton
song about the winged Hussars.
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:Like, you get just like these last
stands and these, you know, kind of
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:heroic, sometimes feudal, rescues
that it's just, I don't know.
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:It's just, Again, it's very,
it's all very compelling.
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:Mark: Yeah, for sure.
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:Are there any other places we
see courage in Lord of the Rings?
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:Matt: I mean, there's lots of different
types of courage and levels of courage.
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:Uh, Sam in, Cirith Ungol uh, Cirith
Ungol I think it is, where he...
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:Again, I think there's a lot of, and
because Tolkien does, Tolkien plays
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:with the supernatural a lot in, in the
stories, and it's really fascinating.
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:Especially in the Lord of the Rings, where
it's less clear cut than in the, like...
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:In the Silmarillion it's like, yes,
over the sea is where the gods live,
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:and, they're kinda directly involved.
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:Whereas in, in The Lord of the Rings,
there's a lot of, like, mystique and,
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:like, was that a supernatural event, or
was that not, kind of, uh, happening.
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:And so, you have Sam, you know,
determining not to give up.
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:And going and basically single
handedly, not even fighting anybody.
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:I think he fights a few people in
Cirith Ungol, but like, his courage,
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:because of his courage, like, this
rumor just spreads throughout the
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:tower of like, No, it's a dwarf!
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:No, it's a mighty elven prince
who's come to kill us all!
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:And it's just like, you have,
like, that's one specific example.
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:But, personally I think Sam is the
most courageous character in the story,
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:specifically because he kind of falls
into all of like, well, literally
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:at the beginning of the story falls
into the story, and he just, he just
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:rises to the occasion, but at the
end of the day, he's still, you know,
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:the same old Sam who, like, the real
courage was inside him the whole time.
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:His courage is kind of a direct,
challenge to the, like, great
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:man courage of characters like
Aragorn and, uh, those people.
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:Because like, to a certain extent,
they're expected to, you know, go to
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:the battlefield and fight these big wars
and be the courageous, flashy warriors.
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:But Sam's just a gardener.
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:He was not trained for this, he's not
designed for this, but he does it anyways.
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:And I think that, again, I, I think that
there is a very strong case be made that
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:Sam is the most courageous character.
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:By far.
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:Mark: Yeah, especially if we define,
like I said, if courage is doing what's
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:right, no matter the cost, do you think
of, like, Sam as someone who, like,
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:always cost him the most, right, of
terms of, like, leaving his home, and
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:he's always the one risking things?
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:I think especially of, like, that
scene, even though you're like, this
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:isn't facing a great evil, where he's,
like, chasing Frodo into the water,
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:right, and Frodo's like, going alone,
and he's like, of course you are...
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:And he's doing it because, right,
he gave his word to Gandalf that he
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:wouldn't, he could be with Frodo.
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:And therefore like, yeah, it's like
this idea of like, I'm going to do
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:what's right no matter the cost and
like, Hey, following Frodo is what's
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:right, and so I'm going to do it.
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:And yeah, I think that's
like a great example.
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:Matt: And and also, coming, like,
doing what's right, without compromise.
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:So, like, I think one of the
greatest moments of that is, it's
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:like, I can't carry the ring, Mr.
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:Frodo, but I can carry you.
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:In that moment, he knows that technically
the right thing to do is to get the
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:ring to the chasm and throw it in.
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:But he also knows that he can't
take the ring, because that
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:would play into the ring's hand.
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:And so he finds the solution of,
Well then I'll just carry Frodo!
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:And, it's so good.
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:But, through it all, he keeps,
Like, I think courage and hope
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:are very, are very tied together.
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:He is both the most courageous
and the most hopeful.
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:Again, a lot of my touch points for
this are the movies, because it's been
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:a long time since I've read the books.
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:But,
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:Mark: Gotta read 'em again man!
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:Matt: I know, I left, I keep
forgetting my copy in Charlotte.
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:But, at the end of all things scene,
where right after they've, destroyed the
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:ring, and literally, as far as they know,
the world around them is collapsing.
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:And they are gonna be overwhelmed
by lava at any moment.
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:Sam is the one that still
hopes that he'll see The Shire.
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:Cause like, Frodo's just like, I
don't remember what that was like.
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:Everything's terrible now.
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:But Sam is the one that is keeping
that hope alive, and keeping that
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:memory of good times, and that
there can be good times again.
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:And even, like, I think symbolically,
he's the carrier of hope, which you
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:don't, get until the Scourging of the
Shire, which is, the dirt and the tree,
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:the seed that he gets from Galadriel,
who, who, uh, he brings it back to the
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:Shire after the Scourging of the Shire.
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:Even, like, the Light of Elbereth that,
Frodo has, I think that is a really
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:fascinating, like, you can almost see
exactly when Frodo's hope dies, and
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:Sam is there to pick it up and carry
forward again, symbolized by the file,
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:because basically as soon as they enter
Mordor, symbolically and literally
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:because he's carrying the ring, Frodo,
like even for that brief stint that
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:Sam carries the ring, after he returns
it to Frodo, Frodo is, from that point
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:on, like, he's all, the whole time
he's been struggling with the ring.
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:But, when they're in Mordor, it's
just weighing on him so much, that
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:he's not, it is almost like Frodo
is doing it simply because it
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:is a task that needs to be done.
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:He's forgotten why he's doing it,
like, the, the actual, like, I'm
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:trying to save, The Shire kind of
thing, He's just doing it because
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:he needs to, it needs to be done.
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:Whereas Sam, in that moment, steps
up and in his most, one of his most
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:courageous moments, which is killing
Shel, or wounding Shelob, is also the
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:moment that he symbolizes hope the most,
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:Philip: What is courage without fear?
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:Mark: Yeah!
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:Well, I was going to say what's
interesting, I think, is that maybe
348
:I would say rather than hope, I'd
say what Sam has is faith because
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:if courage is doing what's right no
matter the cost, faith is the belief
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:the cost will be worth it in the end.
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:and that's Sam believes, right?
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:He believes that by doing this, he
holds onto this idea that like, Hey,
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:everything will be all right in the
end and we will see the Shire again.
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:Matt: I mean, if you wanted to get real
meta about it, you could, or not meta,
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:but like really specific about it, you
could pull in, the Faith, Hope, and
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:Love trio, where, he has hope because
he has faith, and what he's hoping for
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:is that he will save the thing he loves.
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:So, like, they're all, tied together.
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:I mean, I think it is, it's true that
you will often find, where you find
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:one virtue, you will often find others.
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:Philip: Yeah, so it's cool to see how
courage, really plays into, like, the good
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:side in, uh, in Lord of the Rings story,
and how that really, for instance, brings
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:Rohan to victory at the end of the day.
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:Yeah.
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:Matt: And, I, yeah, I think you
can talk about, like, the orcs
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:as the, like, anti courage.
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:Because like, they fight amongst
themselves, and they try to escape,
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:and they backstab, and they,
they don't have all these things.
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:They are fighting because that's all they
know, whereas the other side is fighting
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:because of these things they have.
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:Philip: Thanks for
visiting the White City.
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:Before you leave, please subscribe
to our podcast and check us out
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:at thewhitecitypodcast.com or
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:the tag @thewhitecitypodcast.
